My view on the church has been proven with scripture elsewhere as well…. your view on the spooky invisible church started with martin Luther… who is your protestant forefather.
Nobody believed in such nonsense! John Gill, whom alot of you like to quote, got messed up in his doctrine by hanging out with the protestants.
There is not ONE place in the bible that speaks about any such universal/invisible spooky church…. and I challenge you or anybody else to find just one!

The church is” the pillar and ground of the truth” The reason so many… including Hardin, are messed up on which bible version… or whether a greek word was translated right or not in KJB, is because they are yoked up into a big invisible universal body that has never assembnled… has never preached a sermon, and not only has not, but CAN NOT be a pillar and ground and protector of the truth… the word of God!! The true church that Jesus started and is still building is given that responsibility.

Before you stick both feet in your mouth and choke… I suggest you look up the word “body” in Websters 1828, and OED and even the Greek if you choose…. I suggest you do so before rattling off any more crazy notions about a universal church again.  Evangelist

Evangelist: My view on the church has been proven with scripture elsewhere as well…. your view on the spooky invisible church started with martin Luther… who is your protestant forefather.
Nobody believed in such nonsense!John Gill, whom alot of you like to quote, got messed up in his doctrine by hanging out with the protestants.
There is not ONE place in the bible that speaks about any such universal/invisible spooky church…. and I challenge you or anybody else to find just one!

First of all, you are being disingenuous here. There is a discussion on this site, where you asked me a bunch of questions and smugly said no-one has been able to answer them before. I answered your questions about the Church, and I proved that the universal church has been a biblical doctrine from the 1st century. The apostles taught the universal church, and all of the Early Church Fathers taught the universal church. But for your benefit I will remind you of what the Bible says…

Hebrews 12:23-23 says “Ye are come” in your King James Version. This certainly sounds like he is speaking in the present tense to the Hebrews in Rome who are still alive.

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus told Peter he would build “His church” (singular). The “church” of Jesus certainly meets in individual assemblies all around the world. But His “church” is not divided as this next passage clearly states…

Ephesians 4:4 There is only “one body” of Christ, and interestingly enough, death doesn’t change our membership in Christ’s church. But on the other hand, if the only Church you’re a member of is a Baptist Church, when you die you lose your membership.

Ephesians 2:19-22 Christ’s church has no earthly organization, but definitely has a Heavenly organization. And this is one of my main points in the podcast. If the organization you associate with is a worldly organization… then that’s the best you can possibly have. But to live ‘above the world’ means much more than being an institution better than other world institutions.. it means being a part of a heavenly institution.  John Hardin

Mr. Goodwin, I would just like to say that you come across as a very upset person, while Pastor John and John Hardin come across as being in control of themselves. I picture you as a ranting, yelling man, pulling your hair out because you can’t convince someone to change their mind. If these gentlemen upset you so much, perhaps you shouldn’t listen to their podcast any more, nor should you engage them in conversation.
If your previous posts are truly what you believe, then so be it. But, surely, any intelligent human being can understand that using a certain “type” of Bible is not going to help SAVE anyone. Also, there are many, many saved people in this world who don’t call themselves Baptist. Being a Baptist does not give you exclusive rights to our Lord and Savior, nor does it give you exclusive rights to salvation. If this is what you preach and teach, I pray that God will be merciful with you for being such a hindrance to His children.  Rosa

Rosa,

Thank you for your comments, you speak like a mature Christian.  Pastor John

Thank you for your comments, you speak like a mature Christian.

Hahaha… John… you should run for political office…hahaha  Evangelist

Rosa… I assure you I am upset… but not in the way you think. I am bothered by the manby pamby Christianity we have today…. and the lack of bible discernment. By the way… I do NOT listen to their podcast and I am not trying to change THEM…. as much as I am trying to influence those simple minded folk that may find their way here and listen to this stuff.
From what you said… I can only assume you do not believe you have a perfect bible… but only mans best attempt at guessing what God wanted us to know in all the scores of different bibles out there. What a shame…. I am so sorry you feel that way. What do you mean by a certain “type” of Bible anyway??? The mormans have theirs… the catholics have one… protestants have their NIV…. JW’s wrote their own too….

No where did I ever say that being baptist gives exclusive rights to salvation….. why would you jump to such a conclusion unless you already have a prejuduce against old fashioned bible believers…????? HMMMM???  Evangelist

Rosa… I bet you did not know that for 1530 years of history…. there were only 3 types of churches in the whole world to choose from if you were wanting to attend.
1. Catholic
2. Greek Catholic
3. The one called Ana Baptist…. the church Jesus started

Facts are stubborn things… and so is history  Evangelist

Evangelist: Rosa… I bet you did not know that for 1530 years of history…. there were only 3 types of churches in the whole world to choose from if you were wanting to attend.
1. Catholic
2. Greek Catholic
3. The one called Ana Baptist…. the church Jesus startedFacts are stubborn things… and so is history

Again, I addressed your twisted view of Church history in the elusive list of questions you sent me that supposedly no-one could possibly answer.

As I stated in the podcast, Landmarkers (which defines Dan Goodwin’s position) make an attempt to institutionalize the church. Fundamentalists today, although they claim autonomy, are a social organization by association. They even refer to themselves as “the true Church”, or “the Baptist Church”, or “Fundamentalism”. These are no longer individual autonomous collectives, they are one big organization called “Independent Fundamental Baptist”.

Now, what’s really screwed up, is that now they are a worldly institution, and have forfeited their association with the the universal church and the heavenly Kingdom of God… they now have to justify themselves as Christians by associating with the early Church and the Apostles. Just like the Catholic Church does because they are a worldly institution. So now you see why Dan Goodwin is so adamant that “baptists” existed from the 1st century to the 16th century. And now you understand the basics of Landmarkism.

The Roman Catholic Church has been in existence since the 4th century. The Greek Catholic Church was founded in 1054 AD. And Ana-baptist was a name given to any sect that believed anything at all, but baptized ex-catholic converts. The prefix “ana” means “re”-baptizers. Not only were the “ana-baptists” not a unified organization, but they didn’t even know about each other in most cases and they surely wouldn’t have associated with each other based on other doctrines. In fact I’m sure most baptists, let alone Christians today wouldn’t want to be associated with many of those “ana-baptist” sects throughout history so the logic the Landmarkers use to associate themselves with anyone named “ana-baptist” escapes me.  John Hardin

Evangelist, I don’t know who you are but you are beating a dead horse if you think you can change these guys. They worship Dr No blood, don’t understand the word “all” John. Their bible is “Strongs Concordance”. We have a perfect “WORD” IPet.1:23. A perfect Bible and a perfect Saviour! Psa.11:3 If the foundations be destroyed what can the righteous do? Evangelist, would like to hear from you. kvk@fairpoint.net  Stephen Nissley

I’d like to thank Stephen Nissley and Dan Goodwin for their participation in this discussion. Their posts and views expressed perfectly illustrate the points we made in the podcast. Really, I don’t think I could have written a script this well   John Hardin

John Hardin:
1. My question about which church to attend up till 1500 AD was not adressed to you, but to Rosa.
2. I have not listened to any of the podcasts… except the one I did… nor do I intend to waste my time doing so.
3. Your church history is based upon liberal revisionist history…. PERIOD!
4. History as well as scripture refutes you.
5. Answer the question I gave rosa smarty pants!!!!!! You can not do so… the only option was the Baptist (ana baptist) the catholic or greek catholic…. that is it bud!!

I am not intimidated by you liberal revisionist non bible believers one once!!  Evangelist

Hey stephan…. I am not trying to change these guys…. I speak out only for the sake of those who stumble across this site thinking it is a bible believing baptist site…. which it is NOT.  Evangelist

Evangelist:
1. My question about which church to attend up till 1500 AD was not adressed to you, but to Rosa.
5.Answer the question I gave rosa smarty pants!!!!!!You can not do so… the only option was the Baptist (ana baptist) the catholic or greek catholic…. that is it bud!!

I did answer the question. Scroll up and find the comment I made on March 4th 6:03am. I’m looking forward to seeing what kind of historical gymnastics you try to do to refute me.  John Hardin

Evangelist: Hey stephan…. I am not trying to change these guys…. I speak out only for the sake of those who stumble across this site thinking it is a bible believing baptist site…. which it is NOT.

LOL! Really? This is not a Bible believing site? I have posted more scripture references in your own idol version (KJV) than you have posted in response to me…. And I’M not a bible believer? What a person posts as their source for truth is what they believe. I think it’s obvious that we believe the bible…. I’m afraid you believe your own preconceptions and baptist traditions.  John Hardin

John Hardin… I read your response March 4 6:03 AM and you did NOT answer my question at all!! Who are you trying to fool John?? You said… there was Catholic, Greek, and ana baptist who you make look like bafoons!!!! Shame on your lack or wisdom and understanding of history!
Again John…. answer the question. If you were walking the streets in 1200 ad… 1300 ad… or 1500 ad….. what group/church would you be in????  Evangelist

John…. when you say you are a bible believer…. you need to let people know what you really mean. You mean that you believe the “origionals” (which do not exist anywhere in the world) are the perfect word of God but God was not big enough to preserve them for us.  Evangelist

Evangelist: John Hardin… I read your response March 46:03 AMand you did NOT answer my question at all!!Who are you trying to fool John??You said… there was Catholic, Greek, and ana baptist who you make look like bafoons!!!!Shame on your lack or wisdom and understanding of history! Again John…. answer the question.If you were walking the streets in 1200 ad… 1300 ad… or 1500 ad….. what group/church would you be in????

I say this with the highest level of respect Dan… but you seem dense.
You did not ask Rosa what Church she would be in… you asked her if she knew that there were only 3 Churches in existence for 1530 years. I answered that question and proved you are liar. There were hundreds even thousands of Churches in existence; Catholic and orthodox Greek which were two institutions… then there were thousands of autonomous Churches scattered throughout the known world all with different belief systems.

So… there were not just 3 Churches in existence, there were thousands… but because you are in love with name “Baptist” you associate yourself with anything hinting of the name. The Waldensians practiced infant baptism… the Paulicians were gnostic, dualists and Manichaeans… these were all called ana-baptists by the Catholics. Would you consider yourself an infant baptizer, dualist, gnostic or manichaean? I sure hope not… so then what idiot would claim association with these groups based the name alone? And a name given by the Catholics no less.
Your question in the quote above has been answered in prolixity already on this post
  John Hardin

Evangelist: John…. when you say you are a bible believer…. you need to let people know what you really mean.You mean that you believe the “origionals” (which do not exist anywhere in the world) are the perfect word of God but God was not big enough to preserve them for us.

No I just believe that when God said in Revelation 22:18-19 that the revelation of His word was finished… that’s what He meant. If the King James Version is the inspired word of God then God is a liar… I’m not willing to say that… Are you?  John Hardin

JOHN Hardin…. you can not really be this ignorant of biblical things can you?? I think you are just trying to appear wise to those reading. John…. Jesus did not start 1000’s of churches!!!!!! He started THE CHURCH. There is one body (which is the church) on baptism, one Lord. Now to help you out here…. that one body, the church, is made up of 1000’s of assemblies all over the world.

Now that we had our kindergarden lesson….. for John’s sake, back to our question. John… if you are alive in 1400 AD…. which of the three institutions that are called THE CHURCH , is the church JESUS instituted?????? John, try to use your brain here and quit trying to appear like a great historian or something. The question is simple… it really is.

You have read revisionist history about the ana baptist… it is a shame…. you (if your saved) will stand next to them at the judgement seat one dAY… millions of them were buthchered by the catholic and protestant forefathers whom you brag about often.  Evangelist

John Hardin: No I just believe that when God said in Revelation 22:18-19 that the revelation of His word was finished… that’s what He meant. If the King James Version is the inspired word of God then God is a liar… I’m not willing to say that… Are you?

JOHN…. some of what I said was not in my message for some reason?????? DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT SAY THAT THE GREEK HAD BEEN TRANSLATED WRONG IN A VERSE IN REVELATION DEALING WITH THE MILLENNIUM?? The answer is YES YOU DID.
John… when you say you believe the bible…. be honest and up front with people: You believe the bible that is perfect is the original greek and hebrew which does NOT exist anywhere in the world!!!
God is no liar John…. and He promised to keep and preserve His Spirit given words (inspiration) and we have it here in the King james bible.  Evangelist

Evangelist: JOHN Hardin…. you can not really be this ignorant of biblical things can you?? I think you are just trying to appear wise to those reading. John…. Jesus did not start 1000’s of churches!!!!!! He started THE CHURCH.There is one body (which is the church) on baptism, one Lord.Now to help you out here…. that one body, the church, is made up of 1000’s of assemblies all over the world.

Thanks for repeating what I just said you ignorant donkey! You just defended the universal church! ROFL!!!

Now that we had our kindergarden lesson….. for John’s sake, back to our question.John… if you are alive in 1400 AD…. which of the three institutions that are called THE CHURCH , is the church JESUS instituted??????

Jesus didn’t start an institution… that’s what I’ve been trying to say all along. Jesus started HIS church, HIS body, by HIS Spirit. Not some worldly organization with a constitution and a set of by-laws. I don’t care who you are or what label you put on you… if you are saved, you are part of Christ’s church.

I Corinthians Chapter 12
13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.  John Hardin

Evangelist:
JOHN…. some of what I said was not in my message for some reason??????DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT SAY THAT THE GREEK HAD BEEN TRANSLATED WRONG IN A VERSE IN REVELATION DEALING WITH THE MILLENNIUM??The answer is YES YOU DID.
John… when you say you believe the bible…. be honest and up front with people:You believe the bible that is perfect is the original greek and hebrew which does NOT exist anywhere in the world!!! God is no liar John…. and He promised to keep and preserve His Spirit given words (inspiration) and we have it here in the King james bible.

You’re just talking out your hind end now. I don’t even think YOU know what you’re saying.
If as you say, God preserved His word by inspiration… then why would He even need to magically create a new translation. Are you saying God is powerful enough to inspire us all with His word?  John Hardin

Now John… a church made up of 1000’s of local visible assemblies is not nor can it ever fit the description or definition of an invisible universal church!
John… have you heard of Roadway trucking Co? Is it one company or 100’s? Come on John… it is a simple question. It ios ONE company…. just look it up on the stock market if you dont believe me. Now John…. that one company isnt invisible is it?????? No, of course not. And does that one company all assemble in the same building????? No, of course not! Roadway Trucking is one company made up of local terminals all over the country. Each has its own staff and manager (pastor) but they all belong to and are in fact one trucking company! It is the same with the church that Jesus instituted. It is one visible church/assembly that belongs to Christ… he is the head of it… but there are assemblies all over the world!

Now Pastor John never has got back to me on that definition of “body” from Websters 1828, OED, or even the Greek. Look it up bud…. you will find it can NEVER refer to anything non tangable or of a spirit… but must have mass… physical mass.

There is no such thing as an invisible body. You can have a body of water… but not a body of water vapor. The body…. His church… must be a physical mass… must be visible, tangable. No such thing in the bible as the invisible universal church.
Of the app 115 times church is mentioned in scripture…/ find ONE that is a universal invisible one John.

I don’t care if you see it my way or not…. I have respect for many great men who do not see it as I do….. the difference in them and you guys on this site is you are obstinate and rude and tend to look down on others instead of proving what you believe with the King James Bible.  Evangelist

Evangelist: Rosa… I assure you I am upset… but not in the way you think.I am bothered by the manby pamby Christianity we have today…. and the lack of bible discernment.By the way… I do NOT listen to their podcast and I am not trying to change THEM…. as much as I am trying to influence those simple minded folk that may find their way here and listen to this stuff. From what you said… I can only assume you do not believe you have a perfect bible… but only mans best attempt at guessing what God wanted us to know in all the scores of different bibles out there.What a shame…. I am so sorry you feel that way.What do you mean by a certain “type” of Bible anyway???The mormans have theirs… the catholics have one… protestants have their NIV…. JW’s wrote their own too….No where did I ever say that being baptist gives exclusive rights to salvation….. why would you jump to such a conclusion unless you already have a prejuduce against old fashioned bible believers…????? HMMMM???

First of all, Mr. Goodwin, you seem upset by the fact that these two gentlemen are whipping up on you in this debate. I think that’s why you are truly upset. You do not come across in your posts as a preacher, Bible (by the way, the word Bible should always be capitalized, did you know that?) teacher, or even someone who is a true believer in Christ. If your objective, as you say, is to help the people you feel this sight is influencing, then I must admit, you are definitely achieving your goal. I have been influenced by you to believe that YOU believe that if you’re not a BAPTIST, then you couldn’t possibly be a good Christian, and maybe not even a Christian at all. I am a Baptist, Mr. Goodwin, and I use the KJV Bible….but I would never tell another Christian that they must be a Baptist, or that they should put down their ESV Bible. The God that I serve and love in boundless, limitless, full of grace, mercy, and charity… why in the world would I ever attempt to place boundaries or limits on Him? I am certainly not simple minded. I believe that God came to this Earth in the form of his son, Jesus Christ, who was flesh and blood. I believe that the mother of Jesus was Mary, and He was born of a virgin. I believe that he was crucified on the cross, to take my place as the chief of sinners. I believe he rose on the 3rd day….and I believe he’s going to return to this world one day.
By the way, if you don’t listen to the podcast, then why would you bother to come here and post? Is it just to stir up trouble and cause strife?
Proverbs 26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.  Rosa

John… you are confused. God did not preserve His word by inspiration. Where did you read that?

You need to learn the definition of “inspiration”
INSPIRATION: God’s Spirit. There… that was not so bad was it? All scripture is given by God’s Spirit. (inspiration) Is your King James scripture John? If it is… it was given by inspiration… it has God’s Spirit on the words… that is why it is alive… quick and powerful… and can give life. The writers/translators and scribes were not given by inspiration… the words are what has been given by inspiration of God.  Evangelist

Evangelist: Now John… a church made up of 1000’s of local visible assemblies is not nor can it ever fit the description or definition of an invisible universal church!

I can see your point here, but do you realize that the only logical conclusion then is Ecclesiastical heirarchy? I truly believe this is where the Catholic Church went wrong. They knew the church was universal (which you also believe) but they refused to believe the church was invisible.
What we mean by invisible is that there is no possible way you or I can determine who is part of that universal church. You might be sitting next to someone in Church next week that is no more saved than the man on the moon, but has been a member of a baptist church since he was a child. Do you see the inconsistency in saying the universal church is visible? It’s not visible.. unless you also say that salvation is gained by having your name on a membership roll….. then you might as well call yourself Roman Catholic.
I don’t think you have any idea how dangerous your Landmark Baptist teaching really are!

I have respect for many great men who do not see it as I do….. the difference in them and you guys on this site is you are obstinate and rude and tend to look down on others instead of proving what you believe with the King James Bible.

  John Hardin

Evangelist: John… you are confused. God did not preserve His word by inspiration.Where did you read that? You need to learn the definition of “inspiration”
INSPIRATION:God’s Spirit.There… that was not so bad was it? All scripture is given by God’s Spirit. (inspiration)Is your King James scripture John?If it is… it was given by inspiration… it has God’s Spirit on the words… that is why it is alive… quick and powerful… and can give life.The writers/translators and scribes were not given by inspiration… the words are what has been given by inspiration of God.

So, based on the bolded portions in your quote above, are you saying that the King James Version is not inspired, but rather God inspires us with the meaning of the text as we read it?  John Hardin

AHHH… Rosa has come back! Let me make a few comments.
1. The two gentlemen you speak of??? I have not a clue what ypou mean…. gentlemen do not talk like them.
2. Are you a psycologist or something? You claim to know all about a person by a few sentences.
3. OK… tear down a guy who types with two fingers and hits alot of wrong keys….haha
3. Rosa… there is a big difference in one who “uses” the King James and one who believes it is the perfect inspired preserved word of God. I challenge you to compare the NIV or others with the KJB and see what has been changed. It ought to make you mad.

4. I have not questioned your salvation or anyone else. You seem to be judging if I am saved because I differ with these men on the church. Oh well…. you have a free will to do as you please.  Evangelist

John… no… I do not believe in a “universal” church because by definition… that means “all” are in it. Not true… not all believers are in the church… the body of Christ. many confuse the family of God… which we get in at salvation, with the body of Christ. I wish you would get my book and read it… it is all in there.
Jesus started one church… and that one church is made up of local visible assemblies all over the world. You do not get into this church at salvation.  Evangelist

JOHN HARDIN SAID:
based on the bolded portions in your quote above, are you saying that the King James Version is not inspired, but rather God inspires us with the meaning of the text as we read it?

No John… that is not what i am saying. The Bible says of itself that all scripture is given by inspiration of God… whist means the scripture has God’s Spirit on it. The words are inspired…. they are alive/quick and powerful.  Evangelist

Rosa…. this is the men meeting and being roughians and even taking the gloves off at times…. not probably a place for you. According to Corinthians…. you need to ask your husband at home…. if no husband… your pastor.

Some things for you to ask yourself later in light of your comments:
1. Why do you use the King James Bible?
2. Why do you attend a baptist church?
3. Why are you so sure you are saved?

Don’t give me your answers…. I am slugging it out with the men here. These are questions that you better be sure you have scripture to back up/

May God bless you sister.  Evangelist

John… the catholic church gave us the doctrine of the universal visible church. Martin Luther.. after finding himself outside the “church” (which was not the church) devised the doctrine of the universal invisible church.  Evangelist

Evangelist: John… no… I do not believe in a “universal” church because by definition… that means “all” are in it.Not true… not all believers are in the church… the body of Christ.many confuse the family of God… which we get in at salvation, with the body of Christ.I wish you would get my book and read it… it is all in there.Jesus started one church… and that one church is made up of local visible assemblies all over the world. You do not get into this church at salvation.

I’m very familiar with what Landmarkers believe. I just don’t see any scriptural basis for it.
How do you (and other like you) justify making a distinction between the “Church”, and the “Kingdom of God”. (no offense, but I don’t want to order your book, I’d rather you just tell me the secret here).
I, like so many Christians before me, don’t see any distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Church.  John Hardin

Evangelist: John… the catholic church gave us the doctrine of the universal visible church.Martin Luther.. after finding himself outside the “church” (which was not the church) devised the doctrine of the universal invisible church.

And I gather you agree with the Catholics since you said Luther was wrong.  John Hardin

On the contrary…. the burden of proof is on YOU to prove the Kingdom of God and the church are the same.

As for landmarkers…. the word “landmark” is in the bible… but not “landmarker.” Landmarker… ais like ana baptist… it was given out by catholics and protestants toward others whom they disagreed. The term “landmarker” just as ana baptist and baptist brider…. meanb different things to different people.  Evangelist

JOHN SAID:
finding himself outside the “church” (which was not the church) devised the doctrine of the universal invisible church.

And I gather you agree with the Catholics since you said Luther was wrong.

No… of course not. They were/are both wrong! Wycliff and Huss were both great men too…. but they were trying to reform something that was never alive. The catholic church was NEVER the church…. so there is no use trying to reform it…. and more than trying to bring revival to a lost man.
See… this is the whole point! There are alot of institutions out there that claim to be the church of Christ….. but if we stick to the word of God… we will not be led astray!
Look up 1 Tim 3:15 The church is the protector of the truth… the word of God. The catholics believe they are that church. That is why they did not want the scriptures put into the (vulgar) english language. The people were kept blinded to the truth for this reason. Tyndale made that famous statement to the catholic bishop, “I will make it so the plow boy knows more of the scripture than you do.” What he meant was… he was going to put the scripture into English (not Greek) and they burned him at the stake for it.
Now are the protestants that church today? No…. they came out of the catholic church which was not the church at all…. and started their own mess! Read Rev 17:4-6 who are the harlots that God put in bold print???  Evangelist

Before you jump on this… yes… the term ‘landmarker” came from baptist who know not their roots, toward baptist who know their Bible and their roots.  Evangelist

Evangelist: On the contrary…. the burden of proof is on YOU to prove the Kingdom of God and the church are the same.

Now that’s not fair at all. You can’t claim something without any Biblical substantiation, then lay the burden on me to prove it isn’t true. You’re asking me to prove a negative. Jesus Christ’s church, and the “Kingdom of God” are the same thing, because Jesus never made a distinction between the two, and neither did Paul. If you want to say they are two different things… the burden of proof is on YOU!

Evangelist: No… of course not. [the Catholic Church and Luther] were/are both wrong! The catholic church was NEVER the church…. so there is no use trying to reform it. See… this is the whole point! There are alot of institutions out there that claim to be the church of Christ…..

Right… there are a lot of institutions that claim to be the Church of Christ, but that’s all that is… a bunch of unfounded claims. The Pharisee’s also believed they were God’s people, and they convinced themselves that it was true by their holy living, and their jewish roots; but Jesus said they were nothing but whited sepulchers. You can believe that the “baptist” church is the true church all you want… but it doesn’t make it so.
The baptist church is nothing but another worldly institution like the Catholic Church. But Jesus said in John 18:36 “My Kingdom is not of this world”. That tells me, that Christ’s kingdom is not identified by a worldly institution. His kingdom is an Heavenly institution, with a Heavenly authority, that operates by heavenly laws. Your Baptist institution is nothing but an elevated worldly institution like the Pharisee’s and the Sanhedrin…. Whited sepulchers, full of dead men’s bones.  John Hardin

JOHN HARDIn said:
Now that’s not fair at all. You can’t claim something without any Biblical substantiation, then lay the burden on me to prove it isn’t true. You’re asking me to prove a negative. Jesus Christ’s church, and the “Kingdom of God” are the same thing, because Jesus never made a distinction between the two, and neither did Paul. If you want to say they are two different things… the burden of proof is on YOU!

EVANG DAN GOODWIN: That is the silliest thing I ever heard!! hahaha…. I did NOT claim anything…. YOU did! I never said yea or nea about the Kingdom of God and the church…. you come along and say i got to prove it isnt…. and I say… you got to prove it is! That is like saying… the Bible does not say anything about life on mars…. so prove there isnt?????? Senseless!
Now I did not make any claim…. you made a claim… now the burden of proof is on you to back up your belief with scripture. Course, you will have to try to find them originals somewhere… because that is what you believe are the scriptures.

I went back and double dog checked… I never made any claim about the kingdom of God and the church either way. YOU came out with your opinion but YOU did not back it up with the Bible so it is just more human reasoning to try to make your non biblical universal church fit some how.  Evangelist

John… haha… you will find the scripture about that kingdom being the church… in the chapter of the invisible original Greek scriptures right there next to the scripture about the invisible universal church!

BOOOOO  Evangelist

Evangelist: John… no… I do not believe in a “universal” church because by definition… that means “all” are in it.Not true… not all believers are in the church… the body of Christ.****many confuse the family of God… which we get in at salvation, with the body of Christ*****.I wish you would get my book and read it… it is all in there.Jesus started one church… and that one church is made up of local visible assemblies all over the world. You do not get into this church at salvation.

The portion in italics is what you said. I, knowing what Landmarkers believe, understand that you believe the Kingdom of God (saved individuals) are completely different than the Bride of Christ (Baptist Church). You know that’s what Landmarkers believe and I know it so stop playing dumb with me.

John Hardin:
I’m very familiar with what Landmarkers believe.I just don’t see any scriptural basis for it.How do you (and other like you) justify making a distinction between the “Church”, and the “Kingdom of God”.(no offense, but I don’t want to order your book, I’d rather you just tell me the secret here).
I, like so many Christians before me, don’t see any distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Church.

Evangelist: On the contrary…. the burden of proof is on YOU to prove the Kingdom of God and the church are the same….

John Hardin:
Now that’s not fair at all.You can’t claim something without any Biblical substantiation, then lay the burden on me to prove it isn’t true.You’re asking me to prove a negative.Jesus Christ’s church, and the “Kingdom of God” are the same thing, because Jesus never made a distinction between the two, and neither did Paul.If you want to say they are two different things… the burden of proof is on YOU!

Jesus said in John 18:36 “My Kingdom is not of this world”.That tells me, that Christ’s kingdom is not identified by a worldly institution.His kingdom is an Heavenly institution, with a Heavenly authority, that operates by heavenly laws.Your Baptist institution is nothing but an elevated worldly institution like the Pharisee’sand the Sanhedrin…. Whited sepulchers, full of dead men’s bones.

Evangelist: That is the silliest thing I ever heard!! hahaha…. I did NOT claim anything…. YOU did! I never said yea or nea about the Kingdom of God and the church….

You did make a claim. First, you claimed that the “family of God” is different than the Church. Then, when I asked you to prove that the “Kingdom of God” is different than the Church you challenged me to prove they were the same… that’s the same as an admission that you believe they are different.
Now that you understand that I know what constitutes Landmarkism, you can stop tiptoeing around the fact that you have no idea how to prove your false belief that the Kingdom of God and the Church are different economies.  John Hardin

Evangelist: John… haha… you will find the scripture about that kingdom being the church… in the chapter of the invisible original Greek scriptures right there next to the scripture about the invisible universal church!BOOOOO

Oh really? I didn’t notice that in Hebrews 12:22-23, or next to 1 Corinthians 12:13. Maybe you could point it out for me.  John Hardin

JOHN HARDIN SAID: The portion in italics is what you said. I, knowing what Landmarkers believe, understand that you believe the Kingdom of God (saved individuals) are completely different than the Bride of Christ (Baptist Church). You know that’s what Landmarkers believe and I know it so stop playing dumb with me.

EVANG DAN GOODWIN: Oh.,..you are a mind reader now! The Bible says in Proverbs “he that answerith a matter before he hear it it is folly and shame unto him.” You are guilty as charged John! You think you know what I believe before I say it! The truth is, smarty, there are several different opinions for what landmarks and briders believe… but THE GREAT MYSTIC , John Hardin, knows all!! And I never said the Bride of Christ was the baptist church John. Jesus is NOT coming for the church at the rapture… he is coming for the saints. There will be alot of people who were not baptist in heaven! See….. people like you muddy the waters and get everybody confused on the truth. You dont really know what Grimes, Graves, Penndleton, Carroll… and others believed! You ought to read THEIR books instead of what liberals have said about them. It is obvious to me you have not read after them.  Evangelist

JOHN HARDIN SAID: You did make a claim. First, you claimed that the “family of God” is different than the Church. Then, when I asked you to prove that the “Kingdom of God” is different than the Church you challenged me to prove they were the same… that’s the same as an admission that you believe they are different.

EVANG SAID: Yes John… I made the claim about the family of God being different than the church of God. OK???? What is your point????? I told you… I made no claim of any kind about the Kingdom being or not being the church,….. you just admitted I said the “family of God.” Are you now going to make some claim about that??? John…. maybe you just are not reading properly….. I say again….. and you just proved it agaion…. I made NO CLAIM about the kingdom and the church…. YOU DID! Now you said it…. the burden of proof is on you to prove it.
Now that you understand that I know what constitutes Landmarkism, you can stop tiptoeing around the fact that you have no idea how to prove your false belief that the Kingdom of God and the Church are different economies.

JOHN SAID: Now that you understand that I know what constitutes Landmarkism, you can stop tiptoeing around the fact that you have no idea how to prove your false belief that the Kingdom of God and the Church are different economies.

EVANG SAID: No John… you have proved beyond doubt that you have read what liberals say about landmarkers…. you have not actually read what they themselves believe.
I am not tiptoe around anything John. You are the one that made the bold opinion about the kingdom…. without scripture…. and asked me to prove it wrong. No… the burden of proof is on you…. you made the dumb statement.

JOHN SAID: Oh really? I didn’t notice that in Hebrews 12:22-23, or next to 1 Corinthians 12:13. Maybe you could point it out for me.

EVANG SAID: lOOK UP THE WORD BODY IN 1 CO 12:13. Also study the context….. the scripture is teaching that we are added to the body of Christ… the visible local church upon our baptism which fits perfectly with Acts 2:41-47
If you would do some personal study of the Bible… instead of protestant non Bible believers…. you would find that the word body…. as I already pointed out…. can NEVER be used in reference to an invisible body… but can only be used for something tangable… something with mass. You can have a body of water…. but you can not have a body of water vapor.
Course…. maybe the translators put the wrong word there huh?????? Even the Greek proves the same thing though…. go check it out.  Evangelist

Dan,

Do you prefer smooth or crunchy peanut butter?  Pastor John

There is only one church. Here and there, earth and heaven make a little division to
our senses, but there is no division in the mind of God; he sees one general assembly
of all his people, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.-
Charles Spurgeon

Beloved, the true church is now in the forming, and is therefore not visible. There are
many churches; but as to the one church of Christ, we see it neither here nor there.
We speak of the visible church; but the term is not correct. The thing which we see is
a mixture of believers and mere pretenders to faith. The church which is affianced
unto the heavenly Bridegroom is not visible as yet; for she is in the process of
formation.
Charles Spurgeon

By the term, the Church, I mean the whole body of believers throughout the world,
and in heaven, too, for they together form the one “general assembly and Church of
the firstborn, which are written in heaven.” 2783.284
- Charles Spurgeon

Stupid protestant! Oh, wait, He was Baptist! Did he get mixed up with the protestants and their spooky church views also. OH THE HUMANITY! PROTESTANT DEVILS ARE EVERYWHERE!  Pastor John

The cruncy has more substance “body” to it.  Evangelist

Well preacher John… glad you know your Bible according to Spurgeon, Why dont you go swim in a “body” of water vapor.  Evangelist

I like crunchy peanut butter as well. We agree on something, you may leave now.  Pastor John

You know mister… that is the second time you have been rude to me about going away.  Evangelist

I said crunchy has more substance “body” to it. Trying to get you to learn something about Bible words like “body.” You jumped to conclusions like Hardin…. I did not say i liked crunchy better. I do NOT. So we do not agree on that…. great!  Evangelist

Dan,

I gave those Spurgeon quotes because you seem to be concerned with the History of Baptist, and since you said, “Nobody believed in such nonsense! John Gill, whom alot of you like to quote, got messed up in his doctrine by hanging out with the protestants.”

Here’s more for you. The following is an excerpt from the Philadelphia Baptist confession of 1742.

Chapter 27

Of the Church

1. The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

(Heb. 12:23; Col. 1:18; Eph. 1:10, 22, 23, 5:23, 27, 32)

2. All persons throughout the world, professing the faith of the gospel, and obedience unto God by Christ according unto it, not destroying their own profession by any errors everting the foundation, or unholiness of conversation, are and may be called visible saints; and of such ought all particular congregations to be constituted.

(1 Cor. 1:2; Acts 11:26; Rom. 1:7; Eph. 1:20-22)

You want more? I can go all day. Actually I cant, I have a life outside of having a battle of wits with the unarmed.  Pastor John

Evangelist: I said crunchy has more substance “body” to it.Trying to get you to learn something about Bible words like “body.”You jumped to conclusions like Hardin…. I did not say i liked crunchy better.I do NOT.So we do not agree on that…. great!

You can still leave. I am sure we agree on something. How about Jesus Saves?  Pastor John

Yes I have all the baptist confessions as well as some others…. they are mens opinions… that is all.  Evangelist

So, were you lying when you said that nobody believed that? Or were you just ignorant? Apparently, the belief in an invisible Church is historic Baptist doctrine. I’m sorry I meant spooky Church.  Pastor John

You know… looking at point #1 and #2 of that confession…. it is very possible and in fact probable… that the universal church being spoken of is the church as it is in heaven at the rapture. That is when the church will be without blemish and will be made up of all the saints. Obviously there is none of the authors or signers around to question. No matter…. we have the Bible that is all we need.  Evangelist

The Bible is all we need! Aha! I got you! we agree on something! Now, go away.  Pastor John

PREACHER JOHN SAID: So, were you lying when you said that nobody believed that? Or were you just ignorant? Apparently, the belief in an invisible Church is historic Baptist doctrine. I’m sorry I meant spooky Church.

EVANG DAN GOODWIN: Where is Rosa when we need her????
Rosa….. the pastor is being mean spirited here!!! Where are you Rosa???? HMMM… maybe it was not how I said things that bothered her after all…. maybe it was WHAT I believe! I am devistated Rosa!

No lie at all Pastor John. I asnswered this confession above. Certainly you will find a few in every generation that are messed up on this. You want historical documentation…. old confessions and the like….. coming in the next post. I have about 6 pages of it in fine print in my book!
Go find your glasses!  Evangelist

I’m going to eat Chili. Since you wont leave, I will  Pastor John

The New Hampshire Confession says:
“We believe that a visible church of Christ is a congregation of baptized
believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel;
observing the ordinances of Christ; governed by His laws; and exercising
the gifts, rights and privileges invested in them by His Word,” Ekklesia —
the word for church — (ekklhsi>a) occurs 114 times in the New
Testament, In all but three it is rendered church. It refers to the Christian
Church once typically, (Acts 7:38) the remaining 110 occurrences
antitypically. In 99 instances, by counting, I find it denotes local
organizations; in 12, by synecdoche, it means all the local organizations. It
is used by synecdoche in Matt. 16:18; Ephesians 3:10, 21; 5:23, 24, 25, 27,
29, 32; Hebrews 12:23, and, possibly, one or two other occurrences.
Says E.J. Fish, D.D.:“All investigation concurs with ‘unequivocal uses of
the term in pronouncing the actual church to be a local society and never
anything but a local society.’” “The real Church of Christ is a local body,
of a definite, doctrinal constitution such as is indispensable to the unity of
the Spirit.”
Alluding to its application to all professors, of all creeds, scattered everywhere,
as an “invisible,” “universal church,” Dr. Fish well says: “Not a
single case can be adduced where the loose and extended use of the
collective can be adopted without a forced and unnatural interpretation. The
New Testament is utterly innocent of the inward conflict of those theories
which adopt both the invisible, or universal, as it is now more commonly
called, and the local ideas.”
H. M. Dexter, a Congregationalist, was forced to say: “The weight of New
Testament authority, then, seems clearly to decide that the ordinary and
natural meaning of ekklhsi>a (ekklesia, rendered church,) is that of a local
body of believers.”
Says Ralph Wardlaw, D.D., a Congregationalist:
“Unauthorized uses of the word church. Under this head, I have first to
notice the designations, of which the use is so common, but so vague — of
the church visible and the church mystical, or invisible. Were these
designations to be found in the New Testament, we should feel ourselves
under obligation to examine and ascertain the sense in which the inspired
writers use them. This, however, not being the case, we are under no
such obligation.”

J. T. Christian
The Roman Catholics have always denied the existence of a universal
spiritual church (Alzog, Universal Church History, I. 108, 109). Until the
German Reformation there was practically no other conception of a church.
When Luther and others split off from the Roman Catholic Church, a new
interpretation of this passage was adopted to suit the new views;
J. T. Christian, A History of the Baptist, page 19
I do not want to confuse you with all this info on the
“visible” and “invisible” universal church history, especially
since NEITHER of them are even taught in Scripture
Now let’s look at some quotes from the
past concerning the Universal Church:
Clarence Larkin:
The Baptists hold that a “Scriptural church” is a local congregation of
baptized believers, independent of the state, and every other church, …..
Churches are visible organizations, the visible ceremonial qualification
for membership being baptism. That the membership of the apostolic
churches was composed of baptized believers is clear from the whole tenor
of the Acts of the Apostles, and of the Apostolic Epistles.
Why I am a Baptist, by Clarence Larkin, printed 1887,1902, 1991 page 47

The well known Baptist Confession of 1611 likewise affirms
the local church view. Written by Thomas Helwys and his
congregation, it was printed in 1611 as “A Declaration of Faith
of English People,” which were at that time still in Holland.
Article 10 states, “That the church of Christ is a company of faithful people
separated from the world by the word and Spirit of God, being knit unto the Lord, and one another, by baptism, upon their own confession of faith and
sins.” Article 13 further states, “That every church is to receive in all their
members by baptism upon confession of faith and sins wrought by the
preaching of the gospel, according to the primitive institution and practice.
And therefore churches constituted after any other manner, or of any other
persons are not according to Christ’s Testament.” It is interesting to note
also that The Baptist Encyclopedia, edited by William Cathcart in 1883,
accepts this definition from the 1611 declaration as the true definition of “A
True Gospel Church.”
The famous “London Confession” of 1644 continues the visible church
concept in these words: “That Christ hath here on earth a spiritual Kingdom
which is the Church, which he hath purchased and redeemed to himself, as
a peculiar inheritance: which Church, as it is visible to us, is a company of
visible Saints, called and separated from the world, by the word and Spirit
of God, to the visible profession of the faith of the Gospel, being baptized
into that faith, and joined to the Lord, and each other, by mutual agreement,
in the practical enjoyment of the Ordinances, commanded by Christ their
head and King.”
The confession of 1646 states specifically that “The church is a company
of visible saints.”
However, by the time of the “Second London Confession” of 1677
Protestantism and the Reformation in England had taken its toll, and the
influence of John Calvin’s Presbyterianism, along with the influence of the
Congregationalists made their inroads into the Particular Baptist camp.
They determined to make the Westminister Confession the basis for their
own new confession of faith, and Baptists were betrayed to the universal
and invisible concept. This comes through loud and clear in
Article 26, “The Catholick Church, which [with respect to internal work of
the Spirit, and truth of grace] may be called invisible, consists of the whole
number of the Elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one,
under Christ the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of
him that filleth all in all.”
From this point on the Protestant idea of a universal, invisible church
begins to pollute Baptist life to this day, and has become a battleground
among Baptists.
The Battle for Baptist History by I. T. Cross, page 14-16
JOHN CLARKE, who started the first Baptist church in
America in 1638:
In all of the earliest printed minutes and correspondences relating to the
titles of Baptist churches, they are cited variously as “A body by
themselves,” “a particular body, or Church, … a visible Church of Christ,
… being an entire Church, and body by ourselves …” In a letter to Samuel
Hubbard of the Newport church on January 9, 1674, as recorded by author
Wood, the name“Church of the baptized” is cited.
A visible, local type of congregation of baptized believers was the only
kind that Clarke addressed.
John Clarke 1609-1676, by Louis F. Asher, PH. D. Pg 108-110 Pub 1997 Dorrance Pub Co.

LOTS MORE… BUT THAT SHOULD SUFFICE.  Evangelist

Pastor John: I’m going to eat Chili. Since you wont leave, I will

Remember to look up the word “body” later. I will be looking forward to your eyes being opened… even though I know you guys will never change your mind on this.  Evangelist

Evangelist: Rosa…. this is the men meeting and being roughians and even taking the gloves off at times…. not probably a place for you.According to Corinthians…. you need to ask your husband at home…. if no husband… your pastor.Some things for you to ask yourself later in light of your comments:
1. Why do you use the King James Bible?
2.Why do you attend a baptist church?
3.Why are you so sure you are saved?Don’t give me your answers…. I am slugging it out with the men here.These are questions that you better be sure you have scripture to back up/May God bless you sister.

Well, Mr. Goodwin, that tactic may very well work with your wife, especially if she is one of the simple minded that you referred to in an earlier post, but I am not under subjection to you (praise God), and neither, therefore, do you have any right or place in telling me what I should do. As for asking my husband questions, I don’t recall asking YOU any questions pertaining to Spiritual things—why would I? You have proven that you have no biblical discernment, and I’m not in the habit of seeking advice on such important matters from who does is sorely unqualified. I think that you were called out by a woman for your ridiculous behavior, and you have no answer, so you choose to tell me to go away. But, to appease you, I will tell you that my husband has read every single comment I have made here, and applauds my every word.
If what you are trying to represent is fundamentalism, perhaps you should go back and research the five fundamentals of the faith, because you really don’t seem to comprehend them. I’m saddened for your spiritual condition and will add you and your family to my prayers. You are doing Christianity so much damage with your ranting and raving….if I were an unbeliever, and I was reading this, I would not want anything to do with what you are portraying. I thank my Lord and Savior every day that he has placed a TRUE godly man in my life, and I am not led astray by the heretical comments and ideas you possess.  Rosa

Thank you for those words Rosa…. now let us men have at it here. War is for men! I would be glad to chat with your husband if he would like to discuss Bible doctrine… but I do not do so with the women folk.
For the record… I have never one time said I was trying to represent fundamentalism. It is my opinion that “fundamentalism” yoked us up with people we should not be yoked with and has caused much of the demise you are reading on here. 100 years ago most of us would be in agreement. 50 years ago…. almost NOBODY questioned the King james Bible as being perfect and inspired.
Goodbye sister…. sorry I have not lived up to your standard… but I was in battle here…. not a place for women folk. I do martial arts…. you probably would not want to be around that blood and guts stuff either…. like I said,…. this is men stuff here.  Evangelist

Mr. Goodwin, your attitude is laughable. I haven’t actually read any where in this debate where you have behaved like a man, much less a warrior. After all, a true Christian war demands that it’s soldiers be warriors, armed in battle, ready at every turn to to do combat with whomever necessary. I see that I was correct in my assessment– you are highly unqualified. By the way, my husband has practiced Tae Kwon Do since the age of 11. You could find yourself surprised at what real godly women can enjoy, as opposed to the women you are probably accustomed to being around, who are apparently controlled by puppet strings.
But, I am used to conversing with real godly men, so I will step away from your temper tantrum, and simply watch the 2 Johns make you look even more childish and immature than you have already been portrayed, if that’s even possible.  Rosa

You’d better be careful Dan. I’ve given you a taste of Rosa, one of our fans, but if you push me, I’ll release our minions on you.   John Hardin

Dan,

Are you assuming that women can’t possibly understand or engage in Scriptural issues? That is a poor attitude, especially in light of the fact that Rosa has more Biblical understanding than you. You are very mean spirited and not Christ like in the least. It wouldn’t matter what Scripture we quote, as you have learned the IFB art of hermeneutical gymnastics. I will not debate with you any further, so that I will not answer you according to your folly. I will however leave you with one more passage which I am sure you will twist to your liking.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Dan, have a nice day. God bless you. I believe you are sincere although terribly ignorant Bible Doctrine, and incapable of preforming the most basic exposition of Scripture. See ya.  Pastor John

sheee wizzzz….hahaha!! Rosa…. Dont know what man offended you in your past,. Dont know why you want to attack my wife either whom you never met.
If you want to debate with men…. may I recommend Pastor John….. he seems willing. I will sit back and listen.  Evangelist

John… you want to debate women… someone elses wife….. you go right ahead. You criticise me all you want… I am not intimidated by you one bit. Everytime you and your buddy are confronted with tough stuff you run off.
That is fine… we are done here anyway.  Evangelist

Maybe you should change your name to “delusive duo”, might make more sense.  Stephen Nissley

JOHN HARDIN… and PASTOR JOHN: Answer the questions!!
1. Do you believe the KING JAMES BIBLE is the perfect, inspired and preserved word of God?

2. What is a baptist?

3. Why do you pastor or attend a baptist church? I mean.. what is baptist on the sign out front for?

4. What church would you belong to if you were alive in 1400 A D ??  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: JOHN HARDIN… and PASTOR JOHN:Answer the questions!!
1. Do you believe the KING JAMES BIBLE is the perfect, inspired and preserved word of God?2.What is a baptist?3.Why do you pastor or attend a baptist church?I mean.. what is baptist on the sign out front for?4.What church would you belong to if you were alive in 1400 A D ??

Dan, when I saw you post on this site a couple of days ago, I knew right away that you weren’t here to defend the truth, you came here to defend an institution (Fundamentalism). So, it would be fruitless for us to attempt to convince you of the truth, you’re a fool. But we are to “answer a fool according to his folly”. And while I don’t have much confidence in your ability to reason… I still must make an honest effort to show you the truth. I feel I have done that much further than most people would be willing to wallow in the slime pit with you.

I have answered all four of the questions you just listed on the post on this site entitled “Questions About Baptists”, I’ve taken hours of my time to give you what I believe to be the truth, I have been patient and thorough. And all I have asked is that you give me the same consideration. But, when I ask you to prove your position with biblical answers, you refuse. When I ask you to reason with me and consider what I have to say, you call me a heretic. Why on Earth would I continue to cast my pearls before swine?

You don’t think I’m a Christian, fine. I think you and the institution you associate with are heretics, and I’ll continue to speak out, and ever more loudly as I find outlets to speak in order to convince others of the truth… but I won’t waste any more time with you on this subject until you are willing or able to get into the bible and sincerely discuss this issue… otherwise, I have another podcast to prepare for.  John Hardin

Stephen: It seems my post from March 4 7:07 PM has silenced these so called reformers.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: Stephen: It seems my post from March 4 7:07 PMhas silenced these so called reformers.

All you did in that post is ‘cut and paste’ some statements from people who agree with you. I get it, other people are Landmarkers. It doesn’t prove anything if you can’t formulate a sound argument from scripture to back up what you believe. I could say I believe there are green men living on the moon, but if I couldn’t back it up I just look foolish.

I’ve asked you to prove your view of the Church from scripture and you didn’t even try. One can only assume that’s because you can’t do it. I’ll ask it one more time….

Please explain to me using scripture why Landmarkers believe the Church is a different or exclusive entity compared to the family of God, or the Kingdom of God.  John Hardin

JOHN HARDIN BACK TO SAY:
Please explain to me using scripture why Landmarkers believe the Church is a different or exclusive entity compared to the family of God, or the Kingdom of God.

EVANG DAN GOODWIN: I am a Bible believing Baptist, John. Landmarker is a modern term made up by liberal baptist (like you) who do not know true history, and are stumbling around an invisible spooky church that as I pointed out in the quotes I gave (that shook you guys up) nearly nobody believes in!!

Now John… since I do not know what YOUR definition of a landmarker is….. I can not answer your question. As for the kingdom of God being the church…. you brought that up…. must be one of your pet peas….. you brought it up…. let’s see you prove it with scripture!
As for the family of God…. being different from the church…. easy.

John 1:12…. saved folks are part of His family
Acts 2:41-47 and 1 Co 12:13 baptized folks are in the body of Christ… the church.
Example: Hebrews put the blood on the doorpost in EGYPT…. salvation. (when I see the blood I will pass over you) They are now in the family of God…. but still in EGYPT…. AKA the world. Not called out yet…
CROSSING RED SEA……. they became the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS. Baptized unto Moses (who is a type of Christ) The non believers tried to be baptized into this church and died trying. Salvation comes first… then getting into the church….. then to MT Sinai to get God’s word in us…. then to the promised land to live the victorious life! There it all is in a nut shell.
Go ahead and choke on it…. I know you will.
Want scripture for this??? Acts 7:37-38 1 Co 10:1-4  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin:John… since I do not know what YOUR definition of a landmarker is….. I can not answer your question. As for the kingdom of God being the church…. you brought that up…. must be one of your pet peas….. you brought it up…. let’s see you prove it with scripture!

I did on March 3rd at 12:29pm. Right after that post, I refered you to the article I wrote in response to the questions you asked me back in December. In that article on this site “Questions About Baptists” I went into great detail regarding the universal church.

As for the family of God…. being different from the church…. easy.John 1:12…. saved folks are part of His family
Acts 2:41-47 and 1 Co 12:13 baptized folks are in the body of Christ… the church.

John 1:12 refers to salvation, and Acts 2:41-47 refers to baptism and Church membership. Now I understand that you see a distinction there, and there is a distinction between Church membership and salvation… I agree with that. But there are two different definitions for the word “church”. There are local assemblies of individuals which we call a “church”. Then there is the “universal church” in which all saved people are a member.


You posted a link to Acts 2:41-47. In verse 47 the Bible says “and the Lord added to the Church daily, such as should be saved”. Now… what makes a person part of the church Dan? Baptism? No, according to verse 47 salvation automatically includes a person in the church (singular).

Now let’s look at 1 Corinthians 12:13. Paul says: “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body”. What body is that? Well to understand what body is being referred to we have to ask what does the Spirit of God do for us. The Holy Spirit is what regenerates us and makes us God’s children. According to the Apostle Paul, the work of the Holy Spirit not only includes regenerating us, but also including us in a certain body. The end of that verse also says: “[we] have been all made to drink into one Spirit”. That is to say that the very fact that we are regenerated by the same Spirit, means that we are all part of a larger whole that has a common theme… the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 12:13 is very clear that this larger whole is a “body”. Where else in the Bible are a group of Christians referred to as a “body”? Well… every single place the word “church” is used. A Church is an assembly of Christians. Now, granted we don’t physically meet together as a Church… but we are not just physical beings either. We who are regenerated are spiritual beings, and spiritually, according to 1 Cor. 12:13 we continually meet together in the Holy Spirit.

With this understanding, Hebrews 12:22-23 should be self explanatory, but just in case, I will explain it to you. In verse 22 the author says “ye are come”…. which is to say, you are already at the place I’m about to tell you about. Then he says to the heavenly Jerusalem etc… then in verse 23 he continues to say “to the general assembly of the firstborn”. General meaning not particular or specific, but including all Christians who have ever lived. How is this possible? It’s possible because we have all been regenerated by the same Holy Spirit. It’s in the Holy Spirit that we claim our connection. Not in a physical meeting place.

Example:Hebrews put the blood on the doorpost in EGYPT…. salvation.(when I see the blood I will pass over you)They are now in the family of God…. but still in EGYPT…. AKA the world.Not called out yet…
CROSSING RED SEA……. they became the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS.Baptized unto Moses (who is a type of Christ)The non believers tried to be baptized into this church and died trying.Salvation comes first… then getting into the church….. then to MT Sinai to get God’s word in us…. then to the promised land to live the victorious life! There it all is in a nut shell. Go ahead and choke on it…. I know you will.
Want scripture for this??? Acts 7:37-38 1 Co 10:1-4

Yes, the Israelites in the wilderness were called a church. In the Greek, a church is a called out assembly. But every single adult that sat at the foot of Mt. Sinai, and every single adult that took part in the Paschal Lamb, and every single adult that crossed the red sea, fell away into apostasy at Kadesh-Barnea, and were refused entrance into the promised land…. all but two (Caleb and Joshua). Just because they were part of a Church doesn’t mean they were saved…. they were as lost as a goose in a horse race, even though they were part of a physical, literal, visible church. It’s no different today. You can have your name on a membership role, be baptized, claim the blood of the Lamb, experience the power of God, and even hear God speak… but without faith you are nothing. Hebrews 6:3-6 explains the apostate in this context. Hebrews 3:17-19 also explains that all those who sinned at Kadesh-Barnea were not saved because they didn’t have faith.

Now, I challenge you Dan and anyone else reading. You might be a church member, a pastor, an evangelist. You may have heard the word of God, seen the power of God, even been blessed by association with Church members… but if you don’t have faith like Caleb and Joshua… you are not saved. I challenge you to see the gospel for what it really is… not some convoluted system of Church government or elite institutions. The body of Christ, and the Kingdom of God are one in the same with the Children of God, and the Children of God are those who are also called Children of Abraham who have believed by faith…


Galatians 3:7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.  John Hardin

I just typed out every word of that response to you, and every word of it came from my own mind. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on it Dan Goodwin, and not some cut and paste junk that someone else said. If you can’t formulate your own argument… then it might be wise to not get involved in debate.  John Hardin

John… for your info… that paste job I did WAS MY WORK straight out of my book!!! Where did it go… did you delete it?

HARDIN SAID: I agree with that. But there are two different definitions for the word “church”. There are local assemblies of individuals which we call a “church”. Then there is the “universal church” in which all saved people are a member.
EVANG SAID: Nonsense John! You can not make up your own definitions as you go. What a farce!

You actually believe that the promised land represents heaven and that only Caleb and Joshua were saved…. not even Moses?????

JOHN BELIEVES MOSES, AARON, HUR, AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS ARE IN HELL!!!  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: John… for your info… that paste job I did WAS MY WORK straight out of my book!!!Where did it go… did you delete it?

Yes, I did. It was clutter. Remember, this is not your own pulpit… this is my platform and I’m letting you share it. Be thankful and be courteous. If you want to respond to someone, DO NOT cut and paste a bunch of tripe. If I let everyone do that, anybody could post a book and distract attention from the real issue.

You can not make up your own definitions as you go. What a farce!You need help John. You actually believe that the promised land represents heaven and that only Caleb and Joshua were saved…. not even Moses????? JOHN BELIEVES MOSES, AARON, HUR, AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS ARE IN HELL!!!

You’re a liar. I never said anything about them being in hell. They may very well be there, I don’t know.. .but the truth is, Israel is not a spiritual nation.. they are a physical nation. The history of Israel in the wilderness was not to tell us whether or not they were saved, it was to use their physical journey to explain a spiritual truth.  John Hardin

You delete my post again…. I am out of here! You can not debate someone who deletes what they say!  Evang Dan Goodwin

HERE IS WHAT JOHN HARDIN SAID ABOUT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BEING LOST. YOU, THE READER WILL HAVE TO BE THE JUDGE ABOUT WHO IS LYING.
Yes, the Israelites in the wilderness were called a church. In the Greek, a church is a called out assembly. But every single adult that sat at the foot of Mt. Sinai, and every single adult that took part in the Paschal Lamb, and every single adult that crossed the red sea, fell away into apostasy at Kadesh-Barnea, and were refused entrance into the promised land…. all but two (Caleb and Joshua). Just because they were part of a Church doesn’t mean they were saved…. they were as lost as a goose in a horse race, even though they were part of a physical, literal, visible church.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: You delete my post again…. I am out of here!You can not debate someone who deletes what they say!

Yes, I did. Now quit whining about it and respond to me with something intelligent from your own brain. If you try to post something that big again, I will delete it again. I’m not going to let you ransack this site just because you lost the debate miserably.  John Hardin

YOU GOT TO BE SAVED BEFORE GOD ADDS YOU TO THE CHURCH. PHAROAH and his army tried to get in the church in the wilderness and perished. But just because you are saved and baptized into the church in the wilderness(or NT church) does not mean you are spiritual.

Crossing over Jordan into promised land is not type of heaven… but type of the spiritual living by faith Christian life. Very few believers have the living faith of Caleb and Joshua…. that dont mean they are not born again.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: HERE IS WHAT JOHN HARDIN SAID ABOUT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BEING LOST.YOU, THE READER WILL HAVE TO BE THE JUDGE ABOUT WHO IS LYING.
Yes, the Israelites in the wilderness were called a church. In the Greek, a church is a called out assembly. But every single adult that sat at the foot of Mt. Sinai, and every single adult that took part in the Paschal Lamb, and every single adult that crossed the red sea, fell away into apostasy at Kadesh-Barnea, and were refused entrance into the promised land…. all but two (Caleb and Joshua). Just because they were part of a Church doesn’t mean they were saved…. they were as lost as a goose in a horse race, even though they were part of a physical, literal, visible church.

Dan.. did you even read the passage I referenced in Hebrews chapter 3? Here it is if you are too lazy to open up your bible…

Hebrews Chapter 3
14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Yeah, I said it. But so does your Bible. Take it up with God if you don’t like it Dan.  John Hardin

Evang Dan Goodwin: YOU GOT TO BE SAVED BEFORE GOD ADDS YOU TO THE CHURCH.PHAROAH and his army tried to get in the church in the wilderness and perished.But just because you are saved and baptized into the church in the wilderness(or NT church) does not mean you are spiritual.Crossing over Jordan into promised land is not type of heaven… but type of the spiritual living by faith Christian life.Very few believers have the living faith of Caleb and Joshua…. that dont mean they are not born again.

LOL! Pharoah was not trying to get in the Church… he was trying to get the church back into Egypt. Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

I don’t believe Canaan is a type of heaven, you said that about me, not me. I agree that Canaan is an illustration of the victorious Christian life… perseverance in the faith if you will. But the bible is clear that those who don’t persevere in the faith… were never saved to begin with. By falling away in apostasy, they prove that they were never “of us” to begin with.

KJV: Hebrews Chapter 8
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

KJV: I John Chapter 2
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.  John Hardin

Obviously… the literal rest he spoke of was Caanan land for the Hebrews… a place of living by faith… not heaven and they missed it for lack of faith. In Hebrews… god is using that literal story as an ill of us today missing HEAVEN for lack of faith.

This is a waste of time John.
Read my post
March 5 11:27
It is all there…. right from my brain as I studied the word of God.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: Obviously… the literal rest he spoke of was Caanan land for the Hebrews… a place of living by faith… not heaven and they missed it for lack of faith.In Hebrews… god is using that literal story as an ill of us today missing HEAVEN for lack of faith.

So God didn’t intend for Canaan to be an illustration of Heaven, but the author of Hebrews used it as illustration for Heaven anyway? News flash Goodwin… the New Testament authors were not in the habit of interpreting scripture however they pleased. If God intended Canaan to be an illustration for the victorious Christian life… then that’s the way the author of Hebrews used it.

Come on now, I know you can understand that…. right?  John Hardin

Just like the literal passover lamb is a TYPE of Christ…. Caanan and the folks not entering in there is a type for us. What is sooooo hard about that for you John?  Evang Dan Goodwin

Last chance Goodwin. Be disrespectful, or lie again and I will ban you from here. I’d really love to continue debating with you… but if you can’t act like a Christian, then I don’t want you here.  John Hardin

Evang Dan Goodwin: Just like the literal passover lamb is a TYPE of Christ…. Caanan and the folks not entering in there is a type for us. What is sooooo hard about that for you John?

Right. So what’s your point. I’m pretty sure that’s not what we’re debating here. We are discussing whether a person can be in a physical church and still be unsaved. You seem to think if a person is in a literal church they are automatically saved… I’m trying to say that being a member of a physical church is not what makes a person saved or part of the “church” of Jesus Christ.  John Hardin

Goodwin. Listen to how ridiculous your argument is. You, like the heretical Catholics believe that your are saved by being part of a physical Church (according to the way you have treated the illustration in Exodus and Numbers).

If that were the case, I could register a DBA with the state and call it a Church… then tell everyone that if they join my club they will be rewarded with 75 virgins in Xanadu at the end of their life. See how silly that sounds… that’s what you are doing with beautiful bride of Christ. You are perverting the truth and making it something like every other pagan religion.  John Hardin

JOHN HARDIN SAID: Right. So what’s your point. I’m pretty sure that’s not what we’re debating here. We are discussing whether a person can be in a physical church and still be unsaved. You seem to think if a person is in a literal church they are automatically saved… I’m trying to say that being a member of a physical church is not what makes a person saved or part of the “church” of Jesus Christ.

evang dan goodwin: John… I dont know where you get such things. Did I not say that those who were not saved can not cross the red sea into the church.
You talk about a physical church… see… your man made doctrine causes you to have to make known which church you are speaking of…. well… the Bible does not make such a notion. There is only one church… and it is a visible one.
Where have we been discussing whether an unsaved person can be in a church??? John… a church may vote a person in if they choose (which is not in scripture) but if he is not saved, God has NOT added him to the church. WHERE DID I EVER SAY A PERSON IN A CHURCH IS AUTOMATICALLY SAVED?

As for me lying… I have no idea what you are talking about.  Evang Dan Goodwin

JOHN HARDIN SAID:
Goodwin. Listen to how ridiculous your argument is. You, like the heretical Catholics believe that your are saved by being part of a physical Church (according to the way you have treated the illustration in Exodus and Numbers).

EVANG DAN GOODWIN:
Stephen…. would you help him out here?????? Have I actually ever said such nonsense??? Where have I said such a thing or even hinted at such nonsense????

JOHN: In the type with Israel…. they are saved by the blood on the doorpost. They… now saved in Egypt… cross the red sea into the church baaptised of Moses. John… they did not get saved crossing the red sea…. they are saved by the passover lamb 1 co 5:7

JOHN… read my post from March 4 7:07  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: JOHN HARDIN SAID:Right. So what’s your point. I’m pretty sure that’s not what we’re debating here. We are discussing whether a person can be in a physical church and still be unsaved. You seem to think if a person is in a literal church they are automatically saved… I’m trying to say that being a member of a physical church is not what makes a person saved or part of the “church” of Jesus Christ.evang dan goodwin:John… I dont know where you get such things.Did I not say that those who were not saved can not cross the red sea into the church. You talk about a physical church… see… your man made doctrine causes you to have to make known which church you are speaking of…. well… the Bible does not make such a notion.There is only one church… and it is a visible one.Where have we been discussing whether an unsaved person can be in a church???John… a church may vote a person in if they choose (which is not in scripture) but if he is not saved, God has NOT added him to the church.WHERE DID I EVER SAY A PERSON IN A CHURCH IS AUTOMATICALLY SAVED?As for me lying… I have no idea what you are talking about.

Since you agree then that the physical churches are made up of some saved people and some not saved… and if as you say the visible physical church is the ONLY church, how could the Apostle Paul say this…

KJV: Ephesians Chapter 5
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Are you saying that all those unsaved people in the Church are cleansed, sanctified, blameless, and will one day join Christ in Heaven?  John Hardin

No John… there are NO unsaved people in the church. Only saved people are added to the church by God. Eph 5:27 will take place at the rapture (which you refuse to believe in) and that is when it will be without spot and blemish/  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: No John… there are NO unsaved people in the church.Only saved people are added to the church by God.Eph 5:27 will take place at the rapture

Ok… now we’re getting somewhere. If the “church” will be raptured (or resurrected) as Eph. 5:27 says explicitely … and only saved people will be resurrected. It doesn’t take a whole lot of logic to understand that the physical Church is not what Paul is referring to in Ephesians 5:25-27. He is talking about the church that is made of of ONLY saved individuals… and ALL saved individuals.

This CAN NOT be the visible church because the visible church has unsaved members… besides the fact that (as you even said earlier) there are saved people who are not baptists.  John Hardin

Nowhere in the Bible… including Eph 5 does it say he is coming for the church at the rapture.. He is coming for the Saints…. not all saints are in the church.
John , the church has no unsaved people in it. God adds those to the church when they cross the red sea after getting the blood applied.
Verse 27 is the church comprised of all the saints at the rapture in heaven… then and only then is it without spot or blemish.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: Nowhere in the Bible… including Eph 5 does it say he is coming for the church at the rapture..He is coming for the Saints…. not allsaints are in the church.
John , the church has no unsaved people in it.God adds those to the church when they cross the red sea after getting the blood applied. Verse 27 is the church comprised of all the saints at the rapture in heaven… then and only then is it without spot or blemish.

First of all, you even acknowledged that there are unsaved people in our baptist Churches who are on the membership roll, and have even been baptized. If what you say is true, and the Church has no unsaved people in it.. then you MUST be talking about the universal (invisible) Church which are all united in the same Holy Spirit, but are not yet united physically.

Secondly, look at the passage again…

KJV: Ephesians Chapter 5
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

It says “that he might present it”… the author is referring to the Church in the present tense, but which will be resurrected in the future tense. verse 27 is talking about the future, but it is directed toward a church that is very real NOW!  John Hardin

JOHN HARDIN SAID:
First of all, you even acknowledged that there are unsaved people in our baptist Churches who are on the membership roll, and have even been baptized. If what you say is true, and the Church has no unsaved people in it.. then you MUST be talking about the universal (invisible) Church which are all united in the same Holy Spirit, but are not yet united physically.

EVANG DAN GOODWIN:
jOHN… hahaha… if you want to claim all the unsaved baptized voted in members for your invisible church…haha you can have them.

I( dissagree with your take on “might present it…” definitly the future church in heaven. Besides…. there is no church anywhere ever that is without blemish.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Only 2 reasons I come on these forums.
1. To help the simple see the truth and not be deceived by this stuff
2. To sharpen my own understanding

I see no reason to continue.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: hahaha… if you want to claim all the unsaved baptized voted in members for your invisible church…haha you can have them.I( dissagree with your take on “might present it…” definitly the future church in heaven.Besides…. there is no church anywhere ever that is without blemish.

That’s why he said he “will” present it without blemish. That implies that there is a church before he presents it.

Not to mention verse 25 says that Christ “gave himself for the church”. Um… wouldn’t that mean that the church was in existence when Christ died on the cross? I mean, if Christ gave himself, there must have been something to give Himself to, right?  John Hardin

JOHN HARDIN SAID:
That’s why he said he “will” present it without blemish. That implies that there is a church before he presents it.

Not to mention verse 25 says that Christ “gave himself for the church”. Um… wouldn’t that mean that the church was in existence when Christ died on the cross? I mean, if Christ gave himself, there must have been something to give Himself to, right?

EVANG DAN GOODWIN:
John… you can not be really serious???? Are you actually questioning whether I think a church exists before the rapture?????? After all these posts and going back and forth…. you have to question that??? Of course there is a church here… has been since Jesus started it. But what Jesus is speakking of in Eph five, in the context of marriage and man and wife, is him receiving HIS bride in heaven at the rapture. We are the espoused bride…. not the bride till the wedding day. At rapture…. all saints (including you if your born again) will be the church… the bride in heaven. Guess what… that wont be invisible either!
The church as it exists now.,… still has blemish… and spot… and sin and failures.
Yes, he gave himself for the church… as it is now… as well as what it will one day be! He gave himself for you too…. but you are gonna be changed one of these days…. sooner than we thing…. “we shall all be changed… this body will put on incoruption…..  Evangelist

The fact remains Dan, that the Church that Christ will present to himself in the future, is currently called a Church now… and therefore is in existence. What you are claiming (maybe you don’t realize it yet) is that the church in Heaven is different than the Church on Earth. You are claiming the Church in heaven is made up of all believers (and rightly so)… but the Church (true church) on Earth is the Baptist Church which of course is made of only a portion of believers mixed in with a bunch of non-believers. The Baptist Church cannot logically be the same church spoken of in Ephesians chapter 5. Surely you can see that. Even by your own statements, it’s a completely different entity.

So, what I am saying is that the Church being presented to Jesus in Eph. 5 is in existence now, we enjoy fellowship in the Holy Spirit now, we are under one Head which is Jesus Christ, and in the eyes of God we are a called out assembly on our way to the meeting house……. Your church doesn’t cease to call itself a church on Monday do you? No, and neither does the universal church… the Apostles called the universal economy a church, and so did Jesus.  John Hardin

Are the saints in Heaven visible or invisible? If we can’t see them, does that mean they are the “spooky” members of the Church?  Joe Cassada

Are we only a church when we visibly assemble? On Monday morning, am I still a part of the visible church even though I can’t see my fellow members? Is church membership tangible? If church only ever refers to the local, visible assembly…then how do we define our relationship as being “in the church” when we are not visibly assembled?  Joe Cassada

Nothing you say is logical o r biblical John Hardin. I see Joe showed up to express his non biblical opinions too.
Joe…. when your family was away…. are you still a home? Is the institution we call THE HOME only a home when you are all actually assembled in your house????
In ACTS 12 THE CHURCH assembled to pray for Peter. Was that all the believers all over the world??? NO… of course not. It was the local assmbly that gathered at Rhoda’s house. IT IS CALLED THE CHURCH.

Go away yourself John Hardin! You deleted my posts where I proved you wrong. You are dishonest and I proved you wrong so you delete them!~ Dont waste my time any more.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Let me also ask you this Joe: When someone speaks of THE BIBLE… are they speaking of some mysterious invisible Bible somewhere? No… we are speaking of the one we hold in our hands and there are millions of them.

How about THE NATION. Is that some thing hidden away in a vault somewhere??? No… we are speaking “institutionally.”

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove your invisible universal body cause it is not mentioned in scripture. Show just ONE of the 115 times church is mentioned where it is speaking of a universal church?

Now I gave historical evidence of what out forefathers believed… unless John Hardin has deleted that too. That post caused Pastor John to flea to his invisible home somewhere!!
I also gave sound biblical evidence for why I believe as I do…. but that great debater and scholar… John nHardin,… because he could not refute the Bible…. deleted it.  Evang Dan Goodwin

Evang Dan Goodwin: You deleted my posts where I proved you wrong.You are dishonest and I proved you wrong so you delete them!~Dont waste my time any more.

I asked you nicely to not post whole chapters of your book as comments on this site. It serves to do nothing but ransack the discussion and distract from the real issues. You posted it several times and I deleted it several times. Like I said… this is my platform and if you want to post here you’ll do so according to my rules. If you don’t like that, you don’t have to post here. Fair enough?  John Hardin

Evang Dan Goodwin: Now I gave historical evidence of what out forefathers believed… unless John Hardin has deleted that too.That post caused Pastor John to flea to his invisible home somewhere!!

You arrogant twit. I refuted that months ago. Here is the link  John Hardin

Danny boy,

I dd not flee. I saw that you would not listen to sound reason and Scripture. That and the fact that I do not have the time to sit in front a computer answering someone according their folly, are the reasons I stopped our dialog. I honestly don’t have the time.

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Btw… Don’t flatter yourself  Pastor John

Thanks Pastor John for quoting scripture for us…. no universal church in any of those. Stick to the Bible.,… you will get it right every time.  Evang Dan Goodwin

All of those verses speak of a universal church. You don’t see it because you are interpreting Scripture according to tradition. Once again you reveal that you are incapable of the most basic Bible exposition.  Pastor John

Dan Goodwin is a fruitcake to the extreme, and a scammer. He sells guitars on ebay, however, he lies about their condition.

His views on religion, god, the world, everything are a twisted fantasy.  The All Seer