Good evening, once again, Mr. Hardin.

I ask one thing that you do before succumbing to stories from our “ever so honest” media that would hang both of us out to dry for putting our faith in the Son of Man: read the book “Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light”. Once you read this book, I would like to see your critiques.

Just a ilttle note: this info has been out for years about her “dark period”. It has been a slow last couple of weeks for the media, though.

I, myself, have had dark periods in my life – I am a sinner who questioned My Savior when he brought a debilitating sickness upon a relative. Yet, He brought me through it all.

I still have dark periods when I fall away from God (I should be reading the sacred scriptures now instead of writing on this blog:). Yet, as I heard a famous Protestant say, “God does not give me a ten-speed if I am only ready for a tricycle”.

Mother Teresa was ready for a motorcycle, and, once you have read the book and know her experience with Jesus, you will understand that the quotes from the news article go with a certain context.

In fact, if you promise me you will read this book, I will read any book you choose (remember, I am a simple man who loves Jesus; deep philosophical theology does nit sink in to a very small and humble brain like mine).

Your friend in seeking to know and love Jesus,

R. Kato  R. Kato

Actually, I would love to read the book.
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And if after I read the book, I believe I have misrepresented Mother Teresa, I will recant what I have said in this article and post a public apology for reiterating CBS’s story.  John Hardin

Mr. Hardin,

You are a gentleman and a scholar – even for a non-Catholic…;)

I look forward to your review.  R. Kato

I think that of at least equal concern as her crumbling faith (and evidence as to why) would be to get a glimpse at just what she thought, her doctrine and show us exactly what type of “christianity” she believed in (which reflects well the attitudes and beliefs of Roman Catholicism)
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Here are a couple of quotes:
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“Oh, I hope I am converting. I don’t mean what you think. If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are.”
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“What approach would I use? For me, naturally, it would be a better Catholic, one, for you it may be Hindu, for someone else, Buddhist, according to one’s conscience. What God is in your mind, you must accept.”
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So, according to mother Theresa, we create our own gods and god will be whatever it is that we make of him, nevermind His Word and what the Truth is.
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I can’t spot other quotes at the moment but if I do I will try to remember to post them.
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It’s sad. Very sad. But you said, John, that if only the Catholic Church could have told her the truth, but that system of worship has no truth to give.
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I pray and hope that all Catholics can come to see that false, pagan system for what it really is.  Tommy

I am interested, Mr. Tommy, have you read the book and the context of the quotes? You must remember that our media is not always interested in telling the whole truth. I make the same challenge to you, Mr. Tommy, to read the book and then critique. If you believe 100% in the media, then Christians like you and I are unintelligent people who rest their whole faith in a pagan-based religion, which is of course, how some parts of the media view Christianity – just like the DaVinci Code, correct?

Calling the Catholic faith pagan? I ask what denomination are you, my brother in Christ.  R. Kato

1) No I haven’t read the book and I am not quoting the book.
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2) I don’t have to read the book because I am not commenting on the book.
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3) The quotes I gave are self explanatory and the context from which they were taken takes nothing away from what she says. “Whatever God is in your mind, you must accept” – there is no context that is going to make that mean anything other than what it reads like.
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4) You presume I listen to the media.
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5) The DaVinci Code is propaganda – I know it and that is not where I get my information… but its purpose is not to debunk Catholicism but to strip the divinity from Jesus Christ.
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6) While I am aware of popular opinion it is not upon that I get my information. I get information from reading non popular sources, people who have expertise in certain areas and my own observation.
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7) Yes, the Catholic system is based on paganism dressed up to look like Christianity.
| I am not part of any denomination, but I was raised Catholic.
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9) Read my article on Dave Armstrong on this web site if you like or John’s other articles here on Catholicism, if you want of course. I am not posing any “challenge”. Alternatively, if you prefer video, this man seems to know what he is talking about, a scientist and scholar and also a former Catholic -> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3467098113663063854
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10) Please, don’t condescend to me with your “Mr. Tommy” business.  Tommy

Tommy,

I apoligize if you felt slighted by my addressing of you. I always write people formally (see my other posts in thos blog). Let’s see if I can address your points. I shall keep formality out of my writing.

1) No I haven’t read the book and I am not quoting the book.
|I am interested where you get your resources.

2) I don’t have to read the book because I am not commenting on the book.
|Okay

3) The quotes I gave are self explanatory and the context from which they were taken takes nothing away from what she says. “Whatever God is in your mind, you must accept” – there is no context that is going to make that mean anything other than what it reads like.
|Context is everything. When one reads “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”, Jesus is not angry at the Father. Out of context, it may be that way. But knowing the context that our Savior is quoting Psalm 22:2, “The Prayer of an Innocent Man”, which every devout Jew would have known.

4) You presume I listen to the media.
| You are right – a presumption, and one that is apparently wrong.

5) The DaVinci Code is propaganda – I know it and that is not where I get my information… but its purpose is not to debunk Catholicism but to strip the divinity from Jesus Christ.
| Our media ate the DaVinci Code up, saying that Christians are following a fake religion.

6) While I am aware of popular opinion it is not upon that I get my information. I get information from reading non popular sources, people who have expertise in certain areas and my own observation.
|If you are willing to share, I would be interested on your sources.

7) Yes, the Catholic system is based on paganism dressed up to look like Christianity.
|Harsh criticism – I would like to see the resources on that also.

I am not part of any denomination, but I was raised Catholic.
| Again, if you are willing to share, what made you leave the Catholic Church?

9) Read my article on Dave Armstrong on this web site if you like or John’s other articles here on Catholicism, if you want of course. I am not posing any “challenge”. Alternatively, if you prefer video, this man seems to know what he is talking about, a scientist and scholar and also a former Catholic -> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3467098113663063854
| I have read your article and watched the video. This gentleman is a Seven Day Adventist – is that what you support and believe? Again, I am not being condescending. You asked me to view a video of a gentleman presenting from the SDA viewpoint, I am presuming that this is supports at least some of your beliefs.

10) Please, don’t condescend to me with your “Mr. Tommy” business.

Again, no condescending attitude should be taken from my e-mail. If so, I do apoligize. And I shall address you as Tommy unless told otherwise.

Sincerely yours in Christ,

R. Kato  R. Kato

I apologize if you felt slighted by my addressing of you. I always write people formally (see my other posts in thos blog). Let’s see if I can address your points. I shall keep formality out of my writing.
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Okay. I just get tired of attacks and I didn’t like the vibe I got. Maybe I had a knee jerk reaction and you didn’t mean anything by it. If I was wrong I also apologize.
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|I am interested where you get your resources.
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Literature, online resources, history, Roman Catholic sources, observation, the Bible, the Holy Spirit, ex-jesuits, ex-priests and nuns and my own self thinking for myself.
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Context is everything. When one reads “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”, Jesus is not angry at the Father. Out of context, it may be that way. But knowing the context that our Savior is quoting Psalm 22:2, “The Prayer of an Innocent Man”, which every devout Jew would have known.
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Context is important but it should not be used as a cop out either. Maybe I am wrong, but I don’t see that mother Theresa quote meaning anything else than what it reads like regardless of any context I can imagine. But I do consider context. If it meant something totally different out of context I wouldn’t have used it. Anyway, you brought up context not me.
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Do you know where the quote comes from and know for a fact that it doesn’t mean what it apparently does? Just asking. Because when you questioned whether it is out of context it’s as if you do know it means something else, unless I am wrong.
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If you know that it means something else then please tell me what it’s supposed to mean.
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The quote comes from the book “Mother Theresa: Her People and Her Work”. It is also an answer to a question. I don’t have the book next to me but I think it is something like, “Which approach would you use to come closer to God?” or something like that, but I am not saying for certain.
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Our media ate the DaVinci Code up, saying that Christians are following a fake religion.
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Well, a religion can’t be fake. It just is what it is but I know what you mean. It is saying we believe a lie. It is saying Jesus is not who we think He is and is putting Him at our level by concocting “facts” in order to disprove Him. I believe the actual book says it’s fiction, if I am not mistaken, but a lot of people don’t read books and take what is given to them as fact. Wait for the “Angels and Demons” movie and you’ll really get upset. Tom Hanks and Ron Howard are making that sequel also. I’ll watch it anyway because I want to know what they are up to.
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Maybe of interest is this article:
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http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/23-May-2007.html
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I am not claiming that is true or that Zagami is really who he says he is but I listen to whatever I can and try to find support for it.
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|If you are willing to share, I would be interested on your sources.
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I think you asked that already unless resources and sources is drastically different.
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|Harsh criticism – I would like to see the resources on that also.
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It is obvious. To me anyway. What resources? The conclusion that it is pagan is mine and many others’. You could see all the evidence and interpret it differently, be in denial, or agree with it. For resources I have already mentioned some that I use.
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|Again, if you are willing to share, what made you leave the Catholic Church?
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First of all I was born into it so I really had no choice. Secondly I got absolutely nothing out of it. Just traditions, rituals and ceremonies made by men. I find it to be a shell with nothing of value inside. It is full of the traditions of men, and unBiblical doctrines.
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| I have read your article and watched the video. This gentleman is a Seven Day Adventist – is that what you support and believe? Again, I am not being condescending. You asked me to view a video of a gentleman presenting from the SDA viewpoint, I am presuming that this is supports at least some of your beliefs.
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Does it matter that he is a Seventh Day Adventist?
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I am not a Seventh Day Adventist. I don’t belong to any group. But, yes, I have heard much of their teaching and I agree very much with a lot of it. They are not the only to say these things. While particular systems may not profess these things in their churches I believe many individuals from different denominations believe these things.
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He also quotes much from Roman Catholic sources themselves, including that video.
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Also, now I would like the sources and reasoning why you think I am wrong.
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Thanks for your comments and sorry if there was a misunderstanding   Tommy

Also, I just want to say that when I said that more important than what the book talks about is the types of quotes I gave, it is because although technically she may be a hypocrite (or maybe not – like I said I didn’t read it) and while I don’t like Catholicism, I don’t think she should be necessarily demonized just because she apparently had a crisis of faith. I’m not saying that’s what John did, but I’ve seen some web sites around that say things like “Theresa the Hypocrite!!!”, etc. and trying to make it more than what it is. More important to me is the doctrine, not that she lacked faith. She isn’t a horrendous person just because she had a faith crisis, if it’s true.  Tommy

I just remembered. Here are some people’s names in case by “sources” you meant people.
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Eric John Phelps
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http://www.vaticanassassins.org/
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I haven’t read his book yet but I’ve seen a couple of his lectures. It interested me enough that I will probably get his book. It is a huge book and this stuff is fascinating. This guy is a Baptist, I believe.
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Charles Chiniqy. I’ve read his story. Former priest. Knew Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln helped get him out of trouble before Lincoln was president when Lincoln was a lawyer. The Catholic church tried to frame him to ruin him. He was a Catholic priest who really loved God and when he started being honest with himself he couldn’t accept Catholicism, Pope and Vatican the way he had.
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Alberto Rivera. Ex-Jesuit. I have seen him speak and read his story. I’d like to know more about him but I feel that he is exactly who he said he was. He also has a very interesting story and reveals much of the stuff only insiders high up in Roman Catholicism might ever learn.
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Jordan Maxwell. I don’t totally agree with this guy although I like him. He’s not a Christian and he interprets the Bible wrong in my opinion. I believe he is right about the paganism and astrology present in “Christianity” but he fails to see that true Christianity is not this way, that Christianity is not just copy of other religions but that many other religions are a corruption and counterfeit of true Christianity and that paganism in Christianity has turned this way starting with Rome when it supposedly Christianized. Still, while I don’t care much for some of his interpretation, the actual data he presents is staggering and is what I look at to draw my own conclusions. He has about 40 to 50 years or so of experience and research.
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There are more people, but they’re not all coming to me now.  Tommy

Thank you for writing back – I wrote a long, well-thought out response and it has disappeared into the thin air of cyber space. I promise to write back, but I will wait until the feeling of wanting to throw my computer out the window disappears for losing all my info:).

I do appreciate your openness about Mother Teresa. She experienced a “dark night” in her life – one that we all experience at one time or another. Because I believe God was truly with her, she truly shared in the darkness and neglect of the people she served – the poorest of the poor in the world. She “took up her cross” that Jesus gave her and she carried it with the Lord.

Attached is a link that summarizes the book well.

http://ncregister.com/site/article/3762

It is from a Catholic publication, but it puts many of her quotes from the book into context with other quotes from the book.

I would write more, but my bed is calling me.

Thank you for sharing the resources.

God bless,
R. Kato  R. Kato

Yes, most of us do experience it. I have my own problems I struggle with.
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Okay. I will check that link.
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What happened to you has also happened to me before. So, I know how you feel. It does make a person very angry Now I always write (when I remember to) in a text editor before sending an email or making a post online and I save it often. It really is very frustrating.  Tommy

(R. Kato, Here is the comment that got lost in cyber-space )
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I am always interested in friendly discussion. It is great that we both Jesus Christ is our one true Savior and God. Many people do not even know that – that is the real tragedy.

I was born into Catholicism also. In fact, I fell away from the Church because I was young, thought I was invincible, and believed that God was who He was, but that’s it.

Those same ceremonies that chased me away (I will admit that, as a teen, I would read the bulletin during mass just to pass the time), brought me back.

Our Jewish brethren had many ceremonies. I think Christianity and Catholicism is the extension of Judaism.

Most parts of the Catholic mass is based on Scripture (at least the Catholic interpretation of scripture). I know that there are many discussions/battles about Catholic doctrine and other doctrine and beliefs of non-Catholics. Will that ever change? Probably not until judgment day.

I truly believe that when we go through the Eucharistic part of the mass, that that bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus. Mr. Hardin and I had the discussion on John 6:32-71 and 1 Corinthians 10:16-17, 11:23-29.

I am just starting to read more about the Early Church Fathers as I engage in these discussions.
Many of our Early Chruch fathers, who were there closest to the time of Jesus and the Apostles, have written about the Eucharist. Yes, these were only men, but men who I feel have a great understanding of the ministry of our Lord.
Attached is a link about the writings of our Early Church Fathers
http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

It is on a Catholic website, but the quotes are from the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

Regarding Mother Teresa, she was not depressed, or an atheist – she was going throgh a period that we call a “dark night”. During this time, God seems distant or completely gone from our life. Mother Teresa was “sharing” in the darkness that was experienced by the extremely poor people that she served. She came to know and understand this as the “spirtual side” of her work.

“Mother Teresa identified totally with the sufferings of our Savior on the Cross. She embraced the sufferings sent to her and united her will totally with that of God’s. As a human being, she had the feelings that we all have in the face of darkness, but she was obedient to the will of God and was always willing to let him use her to do His work.” (I can’t take credit for this quote, but it sums up everything for me so beautifully.

In the end, we all experience a form of the “dark night”. We are all called to be faithful, even in those times of no consolation, when the world is collapsing around us and there is no apparent hope. Or when a friend is dying, or suffering from a drug addiction and we can’t help. My closeness to Jesus and His work does not even come close to what Mother Teresa experienced. Did she suffer the same “dark night” that Jesus did in the Garden when the three fell asleep as He prayed – of course not. But did God finally come to Mother Teresa in the end and console her -absolutely.

A quote that is not seen to often from Mother Teresa, “I have begun to love my darkness for I believe now that it is a part, a very small part, of Jesus’ darkness and pain on earth.”

It is late and I would love to write more, but sleep calls me.

God Bless,
R. Kato  John Hardin

Regarding comments getting lost
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This site uses a powerful anti-spam plugin that moderates spam on many different levels. That is the reason you never see spam here.
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The drawback to that is that every once in a while, a legitimate comment gets sucked into the black hole (so to speak).
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The best way to avoid this is to register your username by clicking “register” on the right hand sidebar. Once you do that, you will be recognized as a sincere user by the anti-spam software and your comments won’t get sucked in.
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The reason R. Kato’s last comment was deleted was because of the link that was included. But, you’ll notice Tommy’s posts are fine because he is registered user.
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John  John Hardin

Oh, man…
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John, have you read that article?
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Anyway…
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From the web site you linked to…
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The author of the article wrote:
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“Some have completely misunderstood the nature of these writings, thinking that they oblige us to reconsider the personality of Mother Theresa and her faith and holiness. Far from undermining the stature of Mother Theresa’s holiness, these new documents will immensely magnify it, placing her at the side of the greatest mystics of Christianity.”
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So, now she is a mystic? That is implying there is esoteric knowledge, occult knowledge that only a select few can be privy to. This is not Christian.
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“It was not difficult to recognize immediately in this experience of Mother Teresa a classic case of that which scholars of mysticism, following St. John of the Cross, usually call “the dark night of the soul.” Tauler gives an impressive description of this stage of the spiritual life:
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The word “mysticism” appears again. “Scholars of mysticism”. The Holy Spirit convicts me that this is not from the Creator.
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““I have begun to love my darkness for I believe now that it is a part, a very small part, of Jesus’ darkness and pain on earth.”
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“Love my darkness”. This is really sad. This reminds me of when I was in a deep depression. I feel sorry for her, but this is sad and not honorable or pious just because it is made to seem like it is congruent with Jesus’ walk on earth. Jesus came to be a Light unto the world and for us to be a light unto the world, not a darkness.
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“The most insidious danger for the soul in the dark night of the spirit is to realize that it is, precisely, the dark night, of that which great mystics have lived before her and therefore to be part of a circle of chosen souls.
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There is that word again – “mystics”. “To be part of a circle of chosen souls” – this is elitist thinking, very subtly worded serpent language. I would not be surprised if even the author is privy to exactly the way he speaks, thinking it is pious or something. This is not from the Creator.
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“A Desert Father says: “No matter how great your sufferings are, your victory over them is in silence.”
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What piety. Does victory come in silence or does it come by faith in the Creator and His only begotten Son Yashua Hamashiach? These things may “sound” good, but they are not truth.
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“This mystical experience is a participation in the dark night of the spirit that Jesus had in Gethsemane and in which he died on Calvary, crying: “My God, my God, why hast thou abandoned me?””
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There is the word “mysticism” again. There seems to be a lot of mysticism in Catholicism. This is occult, gnostic doctrine.
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“Deep down in their souls, these persons enjoy a peace and joy unknown by the rest of men, deriving from the certainty, stronger than doubt, of being in the will of God. St. Catherine of Genoa compares the suffering of souls in this state to that of purgatory and says that the latter “is so great, that it is only comparable to that of hell,” but that there is in them a “very great contentment” that can only be compared to that of the saints in paradise.”
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Purgatory is not Biblical. Not in my Bible anyway. Jesus already paid the price so that whosever believes in Him (believes Him AND follows Him) will not perish but have everlasting life. We don’t have to have hell on earth.
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“The world of today knows a new category of people: the atheists in good faith, those who live painfully the situation of the silence of God, who do not believe in God but do not boast about it; rather they experience the existential anguish and the lack of meaning of everything: They too, in their own way, live in the dark night of the spirit.
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So, there is no real difference between Teresa and an atheist in what they felt? There is no difference? Maybe not, because sadly, he may be right in this, since an athiest is without God and mother Teresa may not have been also. This is sad and unfortunate… NOT pious.
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Albert Camus called them “the saints without God.” The mystics exist above all for them; they are their travel and table companions. Like Jesus, they “sat down at the table of sinners and ate with them” (see Luke 15:2).
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Atheists are “saints” but without God? Yea, right. There is the word “mystics” again.
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“This explains the passion in which certain atheists, once converted, pore over the writings of the mystics: Claudel, Bernanos, the two Maritains, L. Bloy, the writer J.K. Huysmans and so many others over the writings of Angela of Foligno; T.S. Eliot on those of Julian of Norwich.”
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“Mystic” again. So, atheists once converted jump into mysticism apparently. How sad.
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“There they find again the same scenery that they had left, but this time illuminated by the sun. Few know that Samuel Beckett, the author of Waiting for Godot, the most representative drama of the theater of the absurd, in his free time read St. John of the Cross.
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“Illuminated by the sun”. I don’t want to pick too much on this because this could be simply figurative speech, however, within the context of matters of the Holy Spirit I personally would refrain from using such language, because the only Light I need is from the Lord Jesus Christ.
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He is also saying that atheists once converted go back to the exact same state except the only difference is they are illuminated by the sun. Oh, how poetic and how damning. I wouldn’t doubt it is the “sun”, Lucifer the so-called morning star. Sad.
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“The word “atheist” can have an active and a passive meaning. It can indicate someone who rejects God, but also one who — at least so it seems to him — is rejected by God. In the first case, it is a blameworthy atheism (when it is not in good faith), in the second an atheism of sorrow or of expiation.”
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No sin is unforgivable except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in which case one would probably not care to be received by God anyway. Jesus didn’t come to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance. New meaning to the word “atheist”. Here, I take the meaning for “atheism of sorrow” to be when one believes in God but feels seperate from Him. You can have sorrow and not feel as close to God as you want to but still believe in Him. Having this sorrow or a crisis is not “atheism”.
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“In the latter sense, we can say that the mystics, in the night of the spirit, are “a-theist,” that Jesus himself on the cross was an “a-theist”, without-God.”
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“Mystic” again. Jesus on the cross was an “atheist”? So, Jesus was without Himself? He was without the Father? You yourself said in your example of “context” that when Jesus spoke the those words of being forsaken that he was only quoting Psalm 22:2 (In my Bible it is 22:1). This is blasphemy.
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“Mother Teresa has words that no one would have suspected of her: “They say people in hell suffer eternal pain because of the loss of God. … In my soul I feel just this terrible pain of loss, of God not wanting me, of God not being God, of God not really existing. Jesus please forgive the blasphemy.”
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How can she believe God is not really existant and then ask Jesus for forgiveness? I think she did believe, but she just felt very empty inside.
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“But one is aware of the different nature, of solidarity and of expiation, of this “atheism” of hers:”
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This “father” can take all the poetic license he wants, but I doubt she was an “atheist”. Her spirit became weak, but I wouldn’t say she is an atheist, based on his quotes.
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“I wish to live in this world that is so far from God, which has turned so much from the light of Jesus, to help them — to take upon myself something of their suffering.”
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We don’t need to take on their suffering but are called upon to be a light unto the world, a salt. For all her helping the poor she was and left others spiritual starving, living by bread alone and not every Word that proceeds forth from the mouth of the Living Elohim.
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“The clearest sign that this is an atheism of a completely different nature is the unbearable suffering that it causes to the mystics. Normal atheists don’t torment themselves because of the absence of God.”
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“Mystics” again. Normal atheists don’t torment themselves over the absence of God (as far as they know some of them) but he wants to give “atheist” a double meaning, in order to justify Teresa’s lack of faith and belief, probably because they can’t have one of their own from their own system, her having been so public, having such a dilemma, otherwise the “church” would have failed her and not just God, in the eyes of many.
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“The mystics arrived within a step of the world of those who live without God; they have experienced the dizziness of throwing themselves down. Again, Mother Teresa who writes to her spiritual father: “I have been on the verge of saying — No. … I feel as if something will break in me one day. … Pray for me that I may not refuse God in this hour — I don’t want to do it, but I am afraid I may do it.”
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“Mystics” again. It sounds like it ultimately really sucks to be a mystic.
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“Because of this the mystics are the ideal evangelizers in the post-modern world, where one lives etsi Deus non daretur (as if God did not exist).”
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“Mystics” yet again. Mystics are the ideal evangelizers? Those who live as if God did not exist? Well, I’ll be darned…
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“They remind the honest atheists that they are not “far from the Kingdom of God”; that it would be enough for them to jump to find themselves on the side of the mystics, passing from nothingness to the All.”
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“Mystics” again! Why so much myticism? So much occultism? This is not what Jesus taught, “In secret have I said nothing”. Atheists are only a jump away from going to the “All” and are not far from the Kingdom of God? Taken into account the surrounding mysticism it sounds as if the Kingdom of God is also has an esoteric and occult meaning, of the kingdom within as in the sense of personal “Christhood” as if we were our own savior, like Teresa wanting to take on the suffering of the world. An atheist is as far from God as you can get.
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“Karl Rahner was right to say: “Christianity of the future, will either be mystical or it will not be at all.” Padre Pio and Mother Teresa are the answer to this sign of the times.”
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More “mystical”. No, my faith in my God is not mystical, esoteric or occult available only to a select few and His saving grace available to all giving truth and wisdom to all those who seek Him and ask for it.
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I fully understand what he was trying to say, and I have nothing against figurative speech or people trying to be poetic, nor is this post about Teresa’s lack of faith. It is one thing to put things in our own words and it’s not like we have to make sure that the most mundane things or even some deep thoughts have to be scripture quotes, but this is all superstitious and gnostic language, and unlike the word “atheist” this article is the real double entendrum for those who can see it.
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This type of poetic, philosophical, mystic, esoteric and occult language is so subtle and deceiving it’s no wonder that people can’t see it coming. All this “hoooliness” and “piety” and “oh my goodness” and “the deepest recesses of the soul and the hidden meanings and the suffering of purgatory” and so on is a deception, blinding peoples’ eyes and it is straight from the enemy, Satan.
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The poor guy who wrote this probably doesn’t even understand how duped he is.
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It is not my intention to make you feel bad, R. Kato, but I really hope and pray that you can see all this for what it really is and we are called to expose the unfruitful works of darkness.
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May the Living Elohim’s guiding grace be with you and draw you away from the great deception and into the Truth.
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http://www.geocities.com/heartland/plains/2594/  Tommy

Oh, man…
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John, have you read that article?
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Anyway…
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From the web site you linked to…

In case it isn’t clear…. I didn’t write that comment. R Kato did, I just retrieved it from the spam trash can and re-posted it here.
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No, I didn’t read the article yet. It was late when I read that R Kato lost his comment, and I decided to track it down before I went to bed. I will give it a read though.
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John  John Hardin

Hi, John
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I know you didn’t write that comment. The article I was referring to was the one R. Kato linked to in the post you saved from the trash. The article I commented on in my last post. When I said “From the website you linked to” I was already speaking to R. Kato at that point, but I didn’t make it clear. Sorry for the confusion.  Tommy

No problem Tommy. Sorry for the confusion.  John Hardin

Tommy,

Thank you for reading the article.

The definition of mysticism from a Catholic dictionary is as follows:
“The secret intercourse of a fervent soul with God. Considered in its entirety it forms a branch of theology, called mystical theology. The word mystical signifies something obscure, occult, or mysterious. A person initiated into mysteries may be called a mystic, and the science which treats of mysteries may be called mystical. This science may be called secret, in the sense that the great things of God are secret. They are secret on account of their magnitude, according to the words of Our Saviour: “He that can take, let him take it” (Matthew 19); their dignity: “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven; but to them it is not given” (Matthew 13); and the unfitness or inability of men to receive them: “Give not that which is holy to dogs” (Matthew 7). It is also a holy science, because it is ordained to the higher sanctification of souls, according to the three ways of perfection: the purgative, the illuminative, and the unitive.”

Jesus did come to be the light of the world – I agree whole-heartedly. But He also asked us to shaer in his Cross. Mother Teresa did this. She saw the poorest of the poor – how nobody cared for them, how nobody loved them, how it seemed as if even God forgot about them. She shared this pain – she lived this pain. She became one with the suffereings of these people (and all the people she worked for, the poor, the unborn ,etc). Did she suffer? Immensely. Did Jesus suffer in the Garden? Much more immensely.
Did she have human questions of God’s abandonment of these poorest of poor? Most definitely. Did Jesus question the Father? Yes, but He knew what needed to be done to save us. Mother Teresa is not God. But at the end, did she find our Lord without any question of Faith – yes, praise be to God.

I imagine it as being called by God, knowing Him so personally that He is almost speaking to me directly like a conversation. Then, He isn’t speaking directly anymore. I see the atrocities that occur with the people of India, the aborted of the world, and I can’t do anything about it. And still, He does not speak. And I long for that closemss that I had, and yet it doesn’t happen. And now I am in despair. But then I remember that he asked that to be with Him, I must be willing to take the cross. And I realize that my great love for these poor people, that I also suffer with them – this is my cross to bear. And through this, I still don’t hear Him like I did – and now I question if I ever heard Him. And I look to speak to my friends, my spiritual counselors – and they tell me what I believe. Yet, I am still human, so I still have my doubts. Yet, I still believe that He will come. And finally, He does. And knowing that I am dying physically, I know I will be with him soon. This how I view Mother Teresa.

She did phenomenal work in the name of Jesus. And she suffered for Him because she did love Him.

I am not a big fan of the use of the word Mystic, because of the negative connotations it has with today’s New Age philosophy. The article is speaking from the definition listed above.

So do I belive Mother Teresa was a holy and pious woman – yes. She served the Lord in an unbelievable way. She also struggled because she was also very human. God, through His graces, gave her an extremely tough assignment in life – one that I personally would have failed at. Yet she still served Him through all of her life.

Tommy, you mentioned that you had a deep depression. Through the power of Jesus, you came through it (Praise God!). Mother Teresa had the same period of darkness with different circumstances.

I believe that the Catholic Church is perfect, it’s people are not. As soon as any human becomes part of any church, the church is imperfect.

Are there factions of things being associated with Catholicism sickening? Yes. For example, Centering Prayer angers me – not based on Christian prayer but being sold as that.
Does the priest scandal anger me? Yes, of course. The sad thing is that every groucalling themselves Christains experience the same problems. We must pray very hard for these things to end.
Does it saddeen me that our Christian brothers and sisters know more about the Bible than my Catholic brothers and sisters? Of course. It is commendable, but there are some of us who are taking our scripture studies very seriously.

Tommy and John,
Pray for me and I shall for you so that we may come closer and closer to our Savior. Discussions like this, at least for me, help me to search and research your questions or points of contention so that I may know my faith more.

Do I believe that the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon” (Just a note to other reading this; they have never said that)? No.
.
Are the people in the Catholic Church perfect? Definitely no.
..
But do I believe that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus came to establish – as a Catholic, of course.
…
John,
Thank you for finding my long response. I thought I was going crazy and I was ready to throw my computer out the window.
…
Tommy,

Thank you for those sources. I shall read more about them and their thoughts. As a Catholic, I am always interested on why priests and nuns left the Church. Probably the same way that Protestants are interested why Catholic speakers like Scott Hahn and Jeff Cains have left their former denominations or why guys like Francis Beckwith have left prominent positions to turn Catholic.

John,

I am going to have to read your other articles against Satanism and Cults. I spend to much time in dialogue with Tommy:)

God bless both of you.
R. Kato

P.S. The power of prayer is awesome and powerful. I have a good friend who has taken a turn for the worse with cancer. Her nickname is LT. Please include her in your prayers. I know this is not a prayer site, but with your strong beliefs in our Savior, your prayers can only help.

Thank you.  R. Kato

R. Kato,

Although this site is not specifically dedicated to prayer… we are Christians, and praying is something we should never cease to do. I will pray for your friend.  John Hardin

Thank you.

In Him always,

R. Kato  R. Kato

I think that Mother theresa was confused as to her beliefs, and was doubting the catholic faith. I was raised catholic, and read father Chiniquy’s book, 50 years as a catholic priest. When you read the bible, according to the catholic church, you first have to read the writins of the church. I recently went to a gathering where a priest was telling the people that “limbo” was no longer, I commented prety soon Purgatory will also be taken out….The catholic church is full of “dogmas” Men made laws, see the 10 commandments of the catholic church and compare them to that of the bible, and in case someone says which bible? They are in the “catholic bible” and the King James bible…read ex. 20 and deut. 5……The catholic church is wrong….very wrong…  Lucy

Good evening to all.

Limbo actually is still a possibility to be believed. It has never been defined doctrinally by the Catholic Church.
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The Catholic Church is full of dogmas – you are correct. Dogmas that have been developed and defined over years and years through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
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As a lifelong Catholic, I have never been told to read anything prior to reading the Bible. The Church Fathers are great sources to supplement the reading for a clearer understanding, but not a requirement.
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Many ex-priests have come out to tell their story. These are a few of the many who have not told their story of happiness and their love of God.
..
I know several friends of mine who have left the Catholic Church. If you really want to discover what the Church teaches, please seek the truth from the Church herself.
.
..
As I have said before, the Church is perfect. It is the people (including some priests and bishops) who are not. As soon as I come into any church, I have made it imperfect.
..
Seek the answers from a good reliable source about Catholicism. Then, after seeking this information, please come back and let us know what you have found.

God bless,
Rich  R. Kato

Good evening to all.
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Limbo actually is still a possibility to be believed. It has never been defined doctrinally by the Catholic Church.
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What the big cheeses of the Catholic church say doesn’t amount to squat. I haven’t read of any limbo in my Bible yet.
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The Catholic Church is full of dogmas – you are correct. Dogmas that have been developed and defined over years and years through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
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The Holy Spirit needs to develop dogma and define over years and years… yea right, especially when it contradicts the received texts and is pagan and God hates them.
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I know several friends of mine who have left the Catholic Church. If you really want to discover what the Church teaches, please seek the truth from the Church herself.
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Yea, like they aren’t delusional or actually know what they are talking about. “Real good sources”. Anybody who asks Catholic honchos what Catholicism is about should take the data and not their interpretations, and measure it against the Word of God, history and some common sense.
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Anyone who wants to know what the Catholic system is about needs these things…
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First and foremost understanding granted by God.
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If not, then even non elect people I know of recognize it for much of what it is. You can still get a pretty good understanding with the following..
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The King James Bible because although it isn’t perfect it was translated from the received texts. Even better would be to have a version that goes through it showing what the original words are and meanings to get a better understanding because there are errors in it.
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At least some of the history surrounding events and culture and customs relevant to biblical times and biblical events to understand the mindset and mentalities of people at that time.
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A good encyclopedia (Truthfully, I could have summed it up by saying the Bible and a good encyclopedia)
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Catholic writings. Although they are written as if they are good you can find a lot truth about what they believe in them. Yes, just go straight to the sources.
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1/10 of a brain.
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As I have said before, the Church is perfect. It is the people (including some priests and bishops) who are not. As soon as I come into any church, I have made it imperfect.
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People make a church! A church is not a system alone or a building! Therefore if the people aren’t right the church isn’t right!
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And even if your definition of church were true that would be like saying Mafia goons are bad but the Mafia isn’t bad.
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Seek the answers from a good reliable source about Catholicism. Then, after seeking this information, please come back and let us know what you have found.
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A good source about Catholicism is Catholicism itself if you have common sense.
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The truth is, I am beginning to feel, is that almost any denomination is at least somewhat Catholic by adopting Catholic beliefs.
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The truth is other denominations need to be exposed just as much as Catholicism. I make an example of them because in a way the Roman Catholic church mothered these other churches over time.
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The Catholic system is a pagan and disgusting perversion of the Truth just like all counterfeit Christianities and false teachings. Provoking God to wrath baking cakes to the queen of heaven, who IS who you worship and NOT Mary whether you like it or not or want to admit it or not! Not that Mary is to be worshiped though! She is not THE mother of GOD. Jesus already existed way before Mary, she was merely a vessel by which he came into this world in a human body.
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Christmas is pagan and Babylonian, Easter (Ishtar) is pagan and is not really the passover, Halloween is the SAME as Christmas except it is the druidic version celebrated a month or so earlier. Christmas is about cannibalism, killing babies and eating them, walking through the fire and sexual perversion. Even the Ku Klux Klan comes from ancient Christ – Mass!
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There were many “christs”, but only Jesus is the TRUE Christ and Savior. Hercules was believed to be a christ as were others. The Roman Catholic Jesus is not the real Jesus and neither is the Catholic Mary the real Mary.
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Mary was not conceived immaculately, she is not the queen of heaven and she is not the mediator. The Catholic “Mary” maybe is, but not the real Mary!
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Catholicism teaches that Jesus is a snooty, ill tempered guy and that we need Mary to subdue his wrath. She does this by “revealing the breasts to him that gave him suck” and that he calms down – Straight from Catholicism itself!
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That is ancient and pagan! That is Mithraism! The Catholic Mary is Aphrodite! and there are countless other things like that about Catholicism!  Tommy

A Blessed Friday for all,

I would like to respond to Tommy’s responses. I tried to document the writer of the response.
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Original comment by R. Kato: Limbo actually is still a possibility to be believed. It has never been defined doctrinally by the Catholic Church.
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Tommy’s reply: What the big cheeses of the Catholic church say doesn’t amount to squat. I haven’t read of any limbo in my Bible yet.
!
R. Kato’s response: Your point of not caring what the Roman Catholic Church says is very evident. Who helps you read and interpret the Bible. I ask only because I am assuming that you listen and read others to help you interpret the tough scriptures. St. Peter said that Paul’s letters are tough to read and interpret.

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Original comment by R. Kato: The Catholic Church is full of dogmas – you are correct. Dogmas that have been developed and defined over years and years through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
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Tommy’s response: The Holy Spirit needs to develop dogma and define over years and years… yea right, especially when it contradicts the received texts and is pagan and God hates them.
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R.Kato’s response: Again, who helps you interpret scriptures. All 33,000+ denominations that are registered in the USA also believe that the Holy Spirit has inspired them also.

Original comment by R. Kato: I know several friends of mine who have left the Catholic Church. If you really want to discover what the Church teaches, please seek the truth from the Church herself.
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Tommy’s response: Yea, like they aren’t delusional or actually know what they are talking about. “Real good sources”. Anybody who asks Catholic honchos what Catholicism is about should take the data and not their interpretations, and measure it against the Word of God, history and some common sense
!
R. Kato’s response: I agree. Did you know the Bible is Catholic? Through prayer and the Holy Spirit, it was Catholics who organized the Sacred Word the way it is today (of course, until Martin Luther decided to change it 1400 years ago). It was Catholics for 1400 years who helped interpret sacred scripture (again, until Martin Luther decided to take change the Bible).
.
What History do you speak of? What common sense do you speak of? History actually supports the doctrines of Catholicism.
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Tommy’s response: Anyone who wants to know what the Catholic system is about needs these things…
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First and foremost understanding granted by God. (R. Kato’s response: I agree!)
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If not, then even non elect people I know of recognize it for much of what it is. You can still get a pretty good understanding with the following..
|
The King James Bible because although it isn’t perfect it was translated from the received texts. Even better would be to have a version that goes through it showing what the original words are and meanings to get a better understanding because there are errors in it. (R. Kato: When discussing Biblical things, I will always quote from the Bible that the other person is using, except for Mormonism, and I will still use the common books we share)
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At least some of the history surrounding events and culture and customs relevant to biblical times and biblical events to understand the mindset and mentalities of people at that time. . (R. Kato’s response: I agree!)

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A good encyclopedia (Truthfully, I could have summed it up by saying the Bible and a good encyclopedia) . (R. Kato’s response: I agree, although I think you need to go beyond an encyclopedia for good indepth study of the ancient people!)

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Catholic writings. Although they are written as if they are good you can find a lot truth about what they believe in them. Yes, just go straight to the sources. . (R. Kato’s response: I agree!)

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1/10 of a brain.

R. Kato’s response: I hope you are not saying that I have 1/10th of a brain. I have 3/5 of a brain:) I am not sure what that reference says.

All translations of the Bible have some error to it. Catholic writings helped form many of the 33,000+ denominations. I agree that Sacred Scripture is truth. Sacred Scripture support Catholicism 100%!!
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Original comment by R. Kato: As I have said before, the Church is perfect. It is the people (including some priests and bishops) who are not. As soon as I come into any church, I have made it imperfect.
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People make a church! A church is not a system alone or a building! Therefore if the people aren’t right the church isn’t right! .
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And even if your definition of church were true that would be like saying Mafia goons are bad but the Mafia isn’t bad.
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R. Kato’s response: Not sure if I see the analogy. The Church that Jesus came to set-up is perfect. Is that a point that we can agree on!

Seek the answers from a good reliable source about Catholicism. Then, after seeking this information, please come back and let us know what you have found.
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A good source about Catholicism is Catholicism itself if you have common sense. (Rich’s response: You are absolutely correct!!!!!)
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The truth is, I am beginning to feel, is that almost any denomination is at least somewhat Catholic by adopting Catholic beliefs. (Rich’s response: You are absolutely correct!!!!!)
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The truth is other denominations need to be exposed just as much as Catholicism. I make an example of them because in a way the Roman Catholic church mothered these other churches over time.
|
The Catholic system is a pagan and disgusting perversion of the Truth just like all counterfeit Christianities and false teachings. Provoking God to wrath baking cakes to the queen of heaven, who IS who you worship and NOT Mary whether you like it or not or want to admit it or not! Not that Mary is to be worshiped though! She is not THE mother of GOD. Jesus already existed way before Mary, she was merely a vessel by which he came into this world in a human body.
Christmas is pagan and Babylonian, Easter (Ishtar) is pagan and is not really the passover, Halloween is the SAME as Christmas except it is the druidic version celebrated a month or so earlier. Christmas is about cannibalism, killing babies and eating them, walking through the fire and sexual perversion. Even the Ku Klux Klan comes from ancient Christ – Mass!

There were many “christs”, but only Jesus is the TRUE Christ and Savior. Hercules was believed to be a christ as were others. The Roman Catholic Jesus is not the real Jesus and neither is the Catholic Mary the real Mary.
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Mary was not conceived immaculately, she is not the queen of heaven and she is not the mediator. The Catholic “Mary” maybe is, but not the real Mary!
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Catholicism teaches that Jesus is a snooty, ill tempered guy and that we need Mary to subdue his wrath. She does this by “revealing the breasts to him that gave him suck” and that he calms down – Straight from Catholicism itself!
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That is ancient and pagan! That is Mithraism! The Catholic Mary is Aphrodite! and there are countless other things like that about Catholicism!

R. Kato’s response: Tommy, I will be accused of Catholic “wordtrackism”, but the truth cannot be hidden. We Catholics believe that the souls in heaven are alive and well with God. We also believe the Saints, who we are also accused of worshipping, are also alive and well with God. Earlier in this forum, I ask Mr. Hardon to pray for my friend who is very sick (and still needs many prayers for those who are reading this). Do you believe this is wrong for me to ask this of my friend? So if I ask Mary or the saints to help pray for me and my friend, am I worshipping Mary and the Saints? My father (bless his soul) passed away a long time ago. I have a picture of him on my mantle. Does that mean I worship him? Our great country is celebrating Veteran’s day this Sunday. Does that mean that we as a country are worshipping the deceased veterans? Is Mary as important as God – OF COURSE NOT. WE DON’T BELIEVE THIS!!!!!! Is she the mother of Jesus? Elizabeth calls her the Mother of my Lord. Is Jesus not from the Davidic line? Are you familiar with the Solomon story in which the Queen Mother had the ear of the king? Did not the angel Gabriel say “Hail, full of grace”, a title only used for royalty or very special people? Jesus did exist before Mary. Can you draw a parallel between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary?
!
|Catholicism DOES NOT teach that Jesus is a snooty, ill tempered guy. Please do not tell outright lies in our discussion. It does not teach that we need Mary to subdue his wrath and that she does this by “revealing the breasts to him that gave him suck” and that he calms down – Straight from Catholicism itself . TOMMY WHERE IS THIS IN THE BIBLE OR ANY OFFICIAL CATHOLIC TEACHING. I can’s even argue that point.|

Also, you are saying that the celebration of Easter is pagan? Are you saying that the Passover celebrated by the Jewish people in the Old Testament has no parallel to the Passion of Jesus?

Are you saying that celebrating the birth of our Savior is pagan?

Did you know Christian holidays were introduced as a non-pagan Christocentric alternative to its pagan counterparts?

Tommy, you are the first Christian that I have heard or read say that the Catholic (and Christian) holidays are truly pagan. I have read many agnostics say this about Christianity, but you are the first Christian to say this.

I look forward to your response. As I have said before, these type of discussions are very instrumental in strengthening my spirituality.

Tommy, for those who do not know you, please let people know your belief background, do you belong to a certain denomination? Are there any books you have read or people you have seen speak that you truly identify with, etc. Everyone knows I am Roman Catholic so my belief structure is out there and easy to try and attack.

Thanks!

God bless,
R. Kato

P.S. I do ask that people pray for my friend, LT. She has terminal cancer and is very sick. Thank you.  R. Kato

Mr. Kato, I will pray for your friend as prayer is the universal language. I pray that the Lord heals your friend. To all I ask to pray for each other, as faith come from hearing the word of God. Even if an angel from heaven comes and tells catholics the truth, they will challenge it. I was there, I know what I am talking about. When I was approached as to where I would go if I died, I was always adamant and would answer, I know, do you? It was after many ways from reading Linda Goodman sun signs, to Edgar Cayce the “sleeping prophet” to Ruth Montgomery the life before….Atlantis and all, that I came to saving faith in Christ. I do not believe in arguing about what the Bible says, and as to having a picture of a love one, that is not the same as bowing in front of a carved image, I do not know of anyone that has a carved image of a loved one….again read your catholic or king james Bible, Exodus 20 or Deut. 5. I pray that we all respect each other, because no matter how much or often we tell a person they are wrong, only the Holy Spirit will change the heart, and God looks at the heart, I know that many denominations have people that will be saved, so lets pray for each other. I have a catholic bible and also a king james, and other than the Apocrypha, books that were added later and not divinely inspired, our bibles have the same words, again, lets agree to disagree and when we die, we will then know….right? God bless all that gives us this info. May God richly bless all. Love in Christ, Lucy from Mexico  Lucy

R. Kato’s response: Your point of not caring what the Roman Catholic Church says is very evident. Who helps you read and interpret the Bible. I ask only because I am assuming that you listen and read others to help you interpret the tough scriptures. St. Peter said that Paul’s letters are tough to read and interpret.
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Yes it is evident but evident of what? What are you insinuating? I don’t mean I don’t care as in “I won’t listen to what they say at all”. I mean it in the sense that I don’t care for the rationalization because it’s false and I am not convinced yet, not that I won’t hear it.
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R.Kato’s response: Again, who helps you interpret scriptures. All 33,000+ denominations that are registered in the USA also believe that the Holy Spirit has inspired them also.
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Who helps you? You have stated clearly and more than once that you believe the Catholic church is the true one and so on. So, how do you know?
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R. Kato’s response: I agree. Did you know the Bible is Catholic? Through prayer and the Holy Spirit, it was Catholics who organized the Sacred Word the way it is today (of course, until Martin Luther decided to change it 1400 years ago). It was Catholics for 1400 years who helped interpret sacred scripture (again, until Martin Luther decided to take change the Bible).
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No, I wasn’t aware that “the Bible is catholic”. Is that a catholic point of view or is it a fact? The Bible (Catholic) and King James were translated from the received texts. Are the received texts Catholic? King James also had Catholics as his translators. The King James is not the inspired Word of God nor is the Catholic Bible but translations of the received texts, which are the inspired Word. Both have many errors, so it is commonly accepted but the Catholic Bible includes apocryphal books. Catholic means universal so when you are talking about catholics are you talking about the Roman Catholic church or just catholic in the sense of the universal church? How did Martin Luther change the Bible? What Bible version is that?
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What History do you speak of? What common sense do you speak of? History actually supports the doctrines of Catholicism.
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I’m talking about the same history you can find in any good encyclopedia. Do you prefer Roman Catholic history from the Roman Catholic point of view? How does History support the doctrines of Roman Catholicism?
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R. Kato’s response: I hope you are not saying that I have 1/10th of a brain. I have 3/5 of a brain:) I am not sure what that reference says.
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Don’t take it personally. I was just trying to get a point across.
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All translations of the Bible have some error to it. Catholic writings helped form many of the 33,000+ denominations.
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I wouldn’t doubt it.
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I agree that Sacred Scripture is truth. Sacred Scripture support Catholicism 100%!!
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I fail to see it. Maybe if you are willing you can explain it to me or point me in the right direction.
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R. Kato’s response: Not sure if I see the analogy.
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The comparison is that the people are in error because the system is in error.
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The Church that Jesus came to set-up is perfect. Is that a point that we can agree on!
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Sure, but that leaves the question who is the bride of Christ and true Church. We also have to define terms. What does perfect mean and who is the church. If I am not mistaken, you have said you think that the Roman Catholic church is it. Am I wrong that the Vatican says there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? I don’t see it.
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A good source about Catholicism is Catholicism itself if you have common sense. (Rich’s response: You are absolutely correct!!!!!)
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Right, the thing is you see the Roman Catholic system as true and I do not see it as entirely true, therefore you will agree because you are coming from the frame that it is correct and a person will see how Catholicism is correct if they go to that source, and I am saying it because I believe that Catholicism can show its own error.
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R. Kato’s response: Tommy, I will be accused of Catholic “wordtrackism”, but the truth cannot be hidden.
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Then how is a lie kept?
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Psalm 51:6 “Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part (”part” – not in the original text) thou shalt make me to know wisdom.”
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We Catholics believe that the souls in heaven are alive and well with God. We also believe the Saints, who we are also accused of worshipping, are also alive and well with God.
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I am not convinced yet that all are already in heaven or that they are not but actually asleep. I know Enoch and some others were taken but since I haven’t come to a conclusion I’ll go along with what you say about them being in heaven…
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Earlier in this forum, I ask Mr. Hardon to pray for my friend who is very sick (and still needs many prayers for those who are reading this). Do you believe this is wrong for me to ask this of my friend? So if I ask Mary or the saints to help pray for me and my friend, am I worshipping Mary and the Saints?
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You are using them as mediators when the only mediator is Jesus Christ. Even in the case of Jesus we still don’t have to pray to Jesus to ask the Father things as long as it is in His name because He does that already. Because of Jesus’ purchase we can go straight to the Father. If I am the head of the household and I proclaim that those in the house come to me but instead they go to others in my household to convince them to come and convince me for something, I would be offended. God is sovereign and through and because of Jesus Christ only can we and we should go to Him.
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I’m not sure if using mediators is technically worship but even if it isn’t the reverence, honor and praise of the so called saints and Mary done in the Catholic fashion IS worship.
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My father (bless his soul) passed away a long time ago. I have a picture of him on my mantle. Does that mean I worship him?
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No, what’s that got to do with it?
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The saints and Mary is much more than a picture on a mantle. You are trying to compare but instead convoluting this thing for the other. I’m not very surprised because Catholicism is a convolution.
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Our great country is celebrating Veteran’s day this Sunday. Does that mean that we as a country are worshipping the deceased veterans?
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Not that I am aware of. Now it is I who doesn’t see the analogy.
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Is Mary as important as God – OF COURSE NOT. WE DON’T BELIEVE THIS!!!!!!
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Actions speak louder than words. I don’t want to repeat myself but the praying to her, and the praying in vain repetition, venerating her, etc., says a lot.
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Is she the mother of Jesus? Elizabeth calls her the Mother of my Lord. Is Jesus not from the Davidic line?
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Mother in the earthly sense as a vessel. She was born a sinner just like everyone else.
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John 2:4 “Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? Mine hour is not yet come.”
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Are you familiar with the Solomon story in which the Queen Mother had the ear of the king? Did not the angel Gabriel say “Hail, full of grace”, a title only used for royalty or very special people? Jesus did exist before Mary. Can you draw a parallel between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary?
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What does that have to do with anything? I don’t see how that makes her worthy of the title “Queen of Heaven” and to be mediatrix, etc. Maybe you can rationalize that for me. I believe fervently in everything I say. I could be wrong. Please correct me showing me why if you want.
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Also, you are saying that the celebration of Easter is pagan?
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Easter is Ishtar. Are you saying it isn’t pagan and has no pagan origins and traditions and customs?
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Are you saying that the Passover celebrated by the Jewish people in the Old Testament has no parallel to the Passion of Jesus?
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No, not really that’s not what I said or didn’t say. What I was saying is that EASTER is ISHTAR and is pagan cloaked to have a Christian appearance.
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Are you saying that celebrating the birth of our Savior is pagan?
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No, are you saying He was born on December 25th?
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Did you know Christian holidays were introduced as a non-pagan Christocentric alternative to its pagan counterparts?
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Yea, and that’s always the excuse but Truth cannot be compromised. God has told us to not have anything to do with the vain traditions of the pagans and heathens.
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“Hey now look honey, I know I used to run around and was a bad boy, fornicating until I met you and it’s bad that I wasn’t chaste when me were married and I know it hurts… But hey, they don’t really mean anything to me now. Just let me think about them as a part of my life and have their pictures up on the wall. Really it doesn’t mean anything and even though I think they are nice and I have fond memories of them it has nothing to do with us and what we have. C’mon now, let’s compromise. Don’t get mad if I invite them over for your birthday. Don’t be upset when I celebrate their birthday. I know I carry their pictures in my wallet but really, It Doesn’t Mean Anything.”
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Tommy, you are the first Christian that I have heard or read say that the Catholic (and Christian) holidays are truly pagan.
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Then you need to look harder because they are there but most won’t know because those in the pulpits won’t talk about it if they know. I believe I already did tell you about Walter Veith. There is also Jim Brown. You want to see and hear Christians saying Xmas is pagan just go to google video or you tube. If you want to read it then a google search will do it.
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I have read many agnostics say this about Christianity, but you are the first Christian to say this.
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I have the honor, then.
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I look forward to your response. As I have said before, these type of discussions are very instrumental in strengthening my spirituality.
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If so that’s good for you. For me, not so much. Although it does strengthen and allow me to see where I am wrong and internalize more, I find arguments about what I believe is the Truth to be futile and draining. Seldom do people change their minds from arguing and that’s what I don’t come here as much as I used to. I also think I am no position to argue certain things until I have become more studied, but once in a while I will see a comment that works me up and I can’t resist.
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Tommy, for those who do not know you, please let people know your belief background, do you belong to a certain denomination? Are there any books you have read or people you have seen speak that you truly identify with, etc. Everyone knows I am Roman Catholic so my belief structure is out there and easy to try and attack.
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Do I have to do this after each post for every person that may enter this discussion part way? I believe I have already answered this question in this very article page. All I can say is I belong to no denomination and am learning as I am on my journey with the Lord and have faith that I will not be deluded and that He keep me and reveal to me Truth, and that’s all. Attack away then.
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Catholicism DOES NOT teach that Jesus is a snooty, ill tempered guy. Please do not tell outright lies in our discussion.
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I’d ask you to do the same, but you believe your lies are truth, therefore you will continue regardless. Okay then, that was my way of expressing it, because “Mary” is the wrath subduer. Maybe that came out wrong. My apologies but that is the sentiment it can communicate in my eyes.
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It does not teach that we need Mary to subdue his wrath and that she does this by “revealing the breasts to him that gave him suck” and that he calms down – Straight from Catholicism itself . TOMMY WHERE IS THIS IN THE BIBLE OR ANY OFFICIAL CATHOLIC TEACHING. I can’s even argue that point.
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That’s my point. It’s not in the Bible. Actually…
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Luke 11: 27 “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lift up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which though hast sucked.”
Luke 11:28
“BUT he said, Yea RATHER, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”
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Alphonsus Liguori said in the Catholic Layman magazine (and the Catholic Encyclopedia at newadvent.org refers to him among the three greatest church missionaries of the 1800s and speaks VERY HIGHLY of him therefore his words must carry a lot of weight in Catholicism whether or not YOU yourself agree with him)
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He said (I paraphrase. You can seek it out for yourself if you like) that the sinner that ventures to come to Christ may come with fear and dread of His wrath, but if he will only employ the mediation of the virgin she only has to show Him the breasts that gave Him suck and subdue His wrath.
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Who is Aphrodite (Milita, Venus, etc.)? She is the Babylonian goddess who was a mediatrix and was called the wrath-subduer, who would charm the angry god Jove. Called Bona Dea in Rome, Amarusia in Greece and by many other names in many cultures. Phryne’s, the proclaimed representative of Aphrodyte, breasts were shown to appease her accusers at her trial and she was aquitted. It is like a great convolution of things that don’t fit together, especially against true scripture. Phryne was a prostitue in Greece. The blue color gown “mary” wears is symbolic of hope and other more honorable things, some may say, was also used as the color for wedding gowns in the 1800s but is also the color of sexual perversion.
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Maybe you can tell what You consider to be the Official Catholic teachings whether in writing, video, audio, whatever form, that I can search them out and look at those sources, if you would prefer that. It would be my pleasure, when I have the time and if I can get a hold of them, although I do not limit myself to those.   Tommy

Tommy,

I agree with your comment about seeing some interesting things to comment on – it is hard to resist a good discussion.
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Some sources of off the top of my head for for Catholic resources include:
1: The Cathecism of the Catholic Church – (www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/contents.cfm)

2: The Vatican website (www.vatican.va)

We have many people in our Catholic faith who claim that they are Catholic, but do not truly do not practice or believe what our faith. For example, we have many “Catholics” who believe in abortion or do not respect human life. We have many who take our religion and pick and choose what they want to believe. That is not Catholicism. I believe many faiths have this problem.
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I would write more, but it is the start of a beautiful day.
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Tommy,

Do we agree on the following?:
Jesus is God and man.
The concept of the Trinity
Jesus died for our sins – He is truly the perfect sacrifice – the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

Okay, I wrote more than I thought I would.
Enjoy this splended day that the Lord has made for us.

God bless,
R.Kato

P.S. Lucy, are you saying you believe the writers of those books or that you do not anymore? Thank you for the kind words and for praying for my friend.  R. Kato

I agree with your comment about seeing some interesting things to comment on – it is hard to resist a good discussion.
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That’s not really what I meant but alright.
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Some sources of off the top of my head for for Catholic resources include:
1: The Cathecism of the Catholic Church – (www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/contents.cfm)

2: The Vatican website (www.vatican.va)
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Thank you. If the opportunity presents itself I may ask a priest or someone where I can get or where are the places I can get the official take on Catholicism, its history and exactly what they believe. But others have already done this and they say pretty much the same thing as me, but I will see what happens.
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We have many people in our Catholic faith who claim that they are Catholic, but do not truly do not practice or believe what our faith. For example, we have many “Catholics” who believe in abortion or do not respect human life. We have many who take our religion and pick and choose what they want to believe. That is not Catholicism. I believe many faiths have this problem.
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I understand that but the point is that I am not just, or even really, talking about people but a system and the doctrine and the origins of that doctrine. And what compelled you to make that statement? Was it my mention of Alphonsus Liguori? If so, he was not a run of the mill roman catholic. If it was not because of his mention that you made that comment, then I don’t know what your comment is in response to and in defense of.
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I would write more, but it is the start of a beautiful day.
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You didn’t have to reply now then. I would’ve waited for a more involved tackling of what I said in my last post.
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Do we agree on the following?:
Jesus is God and man.
The concept of the Trinity
Jesus died for our sins – He is truly the perfect sacrifice – the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.
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I’ll refrain from answering that at least just yet since terms need to be defined and concepts need to be clarified. I could easily say yes to all that but it doesn’t mean we necessarily believe the same thing and it wouldn’t prove much.  Tommy

Mr. Kato, what I meant was that going through all those channels, I came to faith in Jesus Christ, I no longer care to even brouse any of those books, For me, when I came to know Jesus Personally as my Savior, I had no need to do any of the things I did as a catholic, but that is for me, others might feel fine in their denomination. I was raised in Chicago and after coming to Christ, I went to Moody Church, and our pastor is Irwin Lutzer, this church is now non denominational and all people go there, the Pastor is clear on his message without being judgemental, which is what God calls us to be. I find great peace in reading my Bible. Ironically or maybe not, I will be going to Mexico city as my friends are going on a pilgrimage to the Basilica. There is a lot of history which to me is great, and as I mentioned before, My friends ask me about what I believe and I tell them basically the same that they believe, which is the bible, but some dogmas, I do not share their beliefs and I with love, tell them why. I have never had a friend argue with me because I do not take it to that level, as I said before, we have to love one another, and as you said, there are hypocrites everywhere, and the fact that we join a church, that makes it more so. I do love everyone and hope that some day we are all in the same page, that there is no other intermediary between God and men, but Jesus Christ. I will keep your friend LT in my prayers and will have the whole bus load say a prayer for her, I also have a prayer group that originated in Chicago and I will have them pray for her, that God if it is His will,to heal her, which I am sure she will be. May the good Lord bless you always. In the love of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost. Lucy from Chgo, now in Mexico  Lucy

Thank you for the clarification, Lucy. I will include you and your friends in my prayers for safe travels. What I find great is that we all believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
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God bless on your faith journey in Him.

R.Kato
(A former Chicagoan also:)  R. Kato

Mr Kato, thank you for keeping us in your prayers, I wish you could meet my friends, they are believers, the priest is also very knowledable on the scriptures. We have had a few discussions, but God is great! I am glad that you are from Chicago, want to hear something else, I was born in Puerto Rico. It is so nice to have communication with you. I have told my friends about your friend L.T. she is covered with prayers from all over. When we expose our beliefs to others, we have to respect as the Lord would want us to do. Although you and Tommy I think it is, have been going for a while, but I am sure that both with prayers will become brothers in Christ. You sound like a very pleasant person, I am glad to communicate with you via this medium. Have a blessed day and may the good Lord bless and keep you. In his service, Lucy.  Lucy

I agree with Lucy, that R. Kato has been a pleasant person to converse with here at this site. We had some discussion through the comment lines on another article at this site.
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I personally don’t have anything against Catholic parishioners, or even priests for that matter. And I don’t think Tommy does either. There have actually been several Catholic Priests and Monks who have preached the gospel and have even led revivals where thousands were saved. Bathsasar Hubmeier was one of those Catholics.
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As the Apostle Paul stated; we don’t wrestle against flesh and blood, but against powers, and principalities, and spiritual wickedness in high places. That is what we are trying to do. We are not attacking Catholic people… but the teachings of Catholicism.
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John  John Hardin

A while ago, I went to chgo, and was in the downtown area. There were some people from one of those groups that called people sinners and that they would go to hell if they did not follow the gospel. I was with my sister who happens to be a catholic and a great person, she was adamant and I even spoke with one of the gentleman and told him that Jesus never judge anyone, as he looks at the heart, this guy said that then it was alright for people to sin, I mentioned to him that what he was doing was considered wrong, and a sin. I quoted, don’t judge, lest ye be judged. We have to be witnesses as to what Jesus has done in our lives. Love conquers all, and that is what Jesus gave us, plus his life. Lets all pray for each other. In His service, Lucy  Lucy

We are all sinners, and you are right Lucy that we shouldn’t judge one another on the basis of sin.
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There are certain groups who do that and don’t realize that while they might be preaching Jesus… they are preaching a totally different gospel than what Jesus taught. I have actually written an article on that very subject here
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I do though believe that we are to judge certain thing… or to look at things in a discerning manner. This would include judging for ourselves whether a teacher or a teaching is Biblical or not. The Galileans and the Ephesians (Rev. 2) were praised for this.
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In fact, your rebuke of that man who was preaching on the street was actually judgment in itself Lucy. And if I read your post right… you did that for your Catholic friends’ sake so she wouldn’t believe a lie.
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Judgment of sin should be thought of like this… We should NEVER compare our sinfulness or lack thereof to any other person. We SHOULD though compare our sinfulness with the righteousness of God. In that light, all of us are nothing compared to Him.
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John  John Hardin

Touche! you are right Mr. Hardin I was judging, and thinking that I was pious, but for the grace of God, there go I. The reason I came to belief in Christ, was because the people that witnessed to me were very loving and did not force their belief on me, they did however directed me to what the bible said. That is not to say that all churches are right, there are some “christian” churches that are not in the light, I also went through a “prosperity” teaching church. But I did not blame God and kept on searching and let myself be led by the bible. It is all about love and how you portray it. I am glad that there is this page, because as the bible say, we have to help one another in the faith. Hello to Mr. Kato and thanks to all. In the love of Christ, Lucy  Lucy

Lucy, I was also a part of a “prosperity” teaching church as an new Christian. The pastor of that Church had a habit of telling the congregation of visions that he had concerning that particular Church and then explaining what those visions meant. He also claimed to have raised several people from the dead, and healed thousands of people (although he couldn’t offer any proof). I remember one evening after the service, me and a friend of mine were talking about the situation there and we came to the conclusion that he was either a true prophet of God like he claimed to be… or he was possessed with a devil.
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We decided to search the scriptures for ourselves and see if he was acting in accordance with what a true prophet would say and do. We found that not only was he wrong most of the time… but Old Testament prophets did not exalt themselves as this man did, but they only repeated what God had revealed to them.
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About that same time, a rumor came out that he had been abusing his wife and was having an affair. So my friend and I met with him personally to ask him if these things were true. He asked if we could set up a meeting privately on a Saturday and when we came to the meeting to meet with the pastor the parking lot was full of cars. He had EVERY faithful Church member crammed into his office to hear his defense of the matter. And his defense was… SHE DESERVED IT (speaking of his wife).
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That was the last time my friend or I ever went back to that Church. The Church stayed together as far as I know. That just shows you the intense loyalty some of these Pastors enjoy
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John  John Hardin

I have been away, first to Mexico, then to Texas. I have been keeping up with all the opinions. I had the blessing to read Hank Hanegraff´s books,Christianity in Crisis and Counterfeit Revival, which outlined all the lies being taught by certain preachers. I have read articles on the laughter movement, and other such teachings. I talk to friends that are of other denominations, and always refer them to the bible. Like at one time, we were meeting with a priest and he was teaching on the bible and how the catholic faith does not know the bible, not all, but most. He then asked each one a commandment. I was first, I could not answer, not because I did not know, but because the first commandment according to the catholic faith is ¨Love God above all things¨ the bible says ¨´you shall not have other god´s before me. Catholic^: 2nd is You shall not take the name of God in vain. Bible: You shall not have any graven images of anything that is up in heaven on down on earth you shall not bow before them, nor honor them, because I am Jehova your God, etc……Bottom line is that God´s word shall not return void, and it is the Holy Spirit that changes the heart, It is not by might but by His holy Spirit says the Lord. I found out the truth by searching and reading the bible, so it was useless for people to tell me what they believed or what was right. We need to witness in love, because after all, I believe that God chooses us, and that we choose to believe or not, but only if we are searching for the truth. I pray for people and ask that God let them know the truth, but as a catholic, you could not talk to me about my church. I of course as a child did not want to confess to a priest, because I would tell my grandmother, what if they forget to tell God. I did make my first communion and was baptized, I also married in the catholic church and did all the things that a ¨good catholic needed to do. All that I am saying is God knows the heart. I do thank this venue as I am learing many things through all. God bless all, In His name, Love, Lucy  Lucy