False Revival – The “Toronto Blessing”

Posted on September 3 2007 by John Hardin

TACF The Toronto Airport Church is located in Etobicoke, Canada; and is pastored by John and Carol Arnott.

The church is famous for the Toronto blessing, an experiential religious activity which spread amongst the Charismatic church world-wide. John and Carol Arnott were the pastors of the church in 2004, and remain so. The church was not originally a member of the Vineyard Movement, then joined the Vineyard Movement, but was ‘expelled’, some say, after others in the movement became critical of the church’s beliefs and practices. John Wimber, the leader of the Vineyard Ministries International, met with Leaders at TACF and urged them to continue in what God was doing, but felt that he was too busy with the Vineyard Fellowships to continuously give explanations for and on behalf of TACF. As a result John Arnott and the Toronto Christian Fellowshop founded Partners in Harvest, a group churches worldwide that shared similar beliefs. The church is also the source of the so-called Golden Sword Prophecy. Another notable phenomenon that broke out there in March 1999 was the outbreak of allegedly instantaneous, allegedly medically documented dental ‘miracles’ including amalgam fillings or porcelain crowns being ’supernaturally’ changed to high-quality gold. At TACF Revival services, worshippers have exhibited unusual behaviours that they attribute to an encounter with God and the “fire of the Holy Spirit”. The most common described behaviours include laughter (or “holy laughter”), weeping, deep bowing, shaking, ‘drunkenness’, falling to the floor under the Holy Spirit’s power (aka “slain in the Spirit”) and speaking in tongues. Other less common behaviours include manifestations that resembled roaring like lions and crying like an eagle. (See Derek Prince commentary). At one time the TACF website described it thus: “The Toronto Blessing is a transferable anointing. In its most visible form it overcomes worshippers with outbreaks of laughter, weeping, groaning, shaking, falling, ‘drunkenness,’ and even behaviours that have been described as a ‘cross between a jungle and a farmyard.’”

John Arnott started the Church in 1988 and by 1994 the Church had less than 150 members. Mr. Arnott became discouraged and was desperate to grow the church. While holding a conference with Rodney Howard-Brown, they had supposedly experienced an outpouring of the Holy Spirit which included many of the signs listed above. This was the beginning of the so called “Toronto Blessing”.

As of today, the church employs 90 full time workers, and in 2004 their revenue was over 7 million dollars. This is any founding Pastor’s dream for a Church. To grow and minister to thousands. But did this Church really experience true revival?

I have read many testimonies of Pastors who have encountered the “Toronto Blessing” while at one of the many conferences held at the Toronto Airport Church. They tell of their feeling of despair, and discouragement in their pastorate; and the feeling of stagnation they felt in their Christian life. One Pastor I read about, went to one of the conferences as a last hope with his wife to find that feeling they were looking for. Well, they found it; and his wife got “drunk in the spirit” and he had to help her get home and take care of her until she “sobered up”. A speaker at one of the conferences made the proclamation that he was the “Holy Ghost bartender”. The Toronto Airport Church Fellowship is also an affiliate of the “International Healing Rooms”.
Since this Toronto Blessing is supposed to be a revival. Let’s look at what a revival truly is. Many people, when speaking of “revival” really mean emotionalism. We all want to feel good, and as Christians, many times we are searching for a sensational experience with God. So, when speaking of revival, many people really mean they are seeking a renewed experience with God that makes them feel good. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard; “we really had revival… it was great!”

The type of revival that God wants us to have is much different though. It’s not based on “feeling good”, or experiencing God in some dramatic way. Revival is a “renewing” of our spirit and this can only come about in a very specific way according to the Bible.

First of all, Romans 12:12 states that we are to be “renewed” in our mind, and this comes by a transformation by the Holy Spirit. This is not a some dramatic sign of the Holy Spirit’s presence, but rather an inward working process that comes about by prayer, reading the Word of God, and by the preaching of the Word… and is a work that is done in our mind by the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, this renewed mind comes with a clearer perception of ourselves and the world around us. When we grow closer to God, we begin to see things the way God sees them. 1 Corinthians 2:6 tells us that as Christians we have “the mind of Christ”. This means that we are qualified to make spiritual judgments because we see things in an un-natural way… we see things the way God sees them.

So true revival is not an emotional experience, or some existential breakthrough; but true revival is to personally be directed closer to Christ, and therefore see things (spiritually) from a Godly perspective. I remember a few years ago, I was at a Revival meeting at a small church with just a handful of people. The preaching was aimed at focusing our eyes on Jesus Christ and who He is. As a result, we all began to see ourselves and the world around us from the perspective of God. By the end of the service that night, we were all concerned for the community in that area and began praying for God to have mercy on the lost people there and give them a desire to seek God. That was a true revival.

In fact, every time we go to church, or read our Bibles, or pray we should be seeking revival. Our desire shouldn’t be to find some existential spiritual experience that reaffirms God’s existence; our desire should be to have the “mind of Christ”.

What the “Toronto Blessing” encourages Christians to experience is NOT revival. In fact, the “Toronto Blessing” is the exact opposite of true revival. True revival requires us to deny our fleshly and emotional desires and to whole heartedly seek God and His will.

The “Toronto Blessing”, the “Toronto Airport Church”, and all those who teach that this false revival is a movement of God are False Teachers.

John W. Hardin

Comments

peggy Jacobsen on 8 September, 2007 at 4:27 pm #

I just came from a prayer meeting here in Norway with Curtis from Toronto Airport Church. We were encouraged to list our desires, both emotional and physical and to dispose of them. He wanted us to understand that God wanted to know us personally and to know our hearts. We have to be willing to be quiet, to have the time and to make time to be alone with Him if we want to communicate wtih our Lord. I have never met Curtis before and this was my first encounter with anyone from TACF. He got a picture for me and it is a profound confirmation for a new ministry and personal relationship I will be persuing in California. I disagree with your article and hope you will have a chance to meet them personally and not accuse them of falsely teaching true revival when only The Lord knows for sure and surely you have no right to judge. Blessing in Christ Jesus, peggy peggy Jacobsen

John Hardin on 8 September, 2007 at 8:22 pm #

Hello Peggy, thanks for the comment.
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You mentioned a little of what Curtis encouraged you in; namely opening yourself up to God. But you never mentioned anything about the various experiences people tend to have once they open themselves up.
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The experiences I am referring to, like I mentioned in the article are: spiritual drunkeness, laughing, and mimicking barnyard animals. I would like for you to ask yourself how these kinds of manifestations would indicate a relationship with God. The truth is, they don’t.
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Although Curtis may have initiated his introduction of the Toronto Blessing to you with truths about God’s desire to know you personally. It will eventually become evident that they will keep you with sensationalism which is only satisfying those physical and emotional desires.
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By the time you figure out that you have been manipulated, they will have had enough of your money, and you will have pointed many more people to their heresy.
| John Hardin

peggy Jacobsen on 9 September, 2007 at 1:57 am #

Thanks for getting back to me John. As Curtis was only here for the evening service we were not introduced into any such manifestations that you mentioned. (Maybe that comes later)
I agree wtih you that’spiritual dunkenness, laughing, and mimicking barnyard animals’ doesn’t necesarily indicate a relationship with God, but hey whatever it takes to get people to even want a relationship wtih God! Laughing is a wonderful experience and one that is encouraged in the bible! (and it’s very good for you John)
I became a Christian almost 5 years ago now and if my life with Jesus depended on the church down the street and its contents thereof, I would sill be very lost. I wonder if you are in touch with people not living with Christ. They are so lost John, my heart hurts for them. His word tell us to get them in by any means, the snake and dove method! My desire is to have an intimate relationship with Jesus and to help others have the same. My prayer is for all churches to unite as one, as God wants us to… and to stop this tit for tat bickering.
Sensationalism, manipulation, satisfying physical and emotional desires…….these are your words, I did not hear them or experience them last night while at the TACF meeting. I am quite aware of the warning about false teachings, but your article sounds like detail picking, and jealousy. I’m not sure I want to go there with you. Persuade me otherwise. In Him, peggy peggy Jacobsen

John Hardin on 9 September, 2007 at 2:37 am #

Hi again Peggy, I am glad to hear of your salvation.
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You are right, the most important work we can be about is preaching the gospel to the lost. This site’s intention is not to bicker with other people, but rather to reach people who have been deceived already by false teachers, and point them to Christ. And that is the purpose of this article.
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I realize that you didn’t hear anything of sensationalism, manipulation, etc. at the TACF meeting. But why would you if you were being deceived. If someone wants you to believe a lie, they don’t start off with lies, they start off with truth… that is until they have your trust.
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I urge you to be careful. Don’t just take what anyone says as truth, always compare it with the Bible. I’m not the first one to write about the TACF and their unbiblical practice. The sensationalism, and manipulation has been well documented…

Here is one Vineyard Pastor’s testimony of his experience with the TACF.

Here is a testimony by a man who was at a “soaking” meeting at the Toronto Airport Church.

A quote from Hank Hanegraaf’s book “Counterfeit Revival” (A book about the Toronto Blessing) He quotes A. W. Tozer…

“Any of it [teaching] that is good is in the Word of God, and any that is not in the Word of God is not good. I am a Bible Christian and if an archangel with a wingspread as broad as a constellation shining like the sun were to come and offer me some new truth, I’d ask him for a reference. If he could not show me where it is found in the Bible, I would bow him out and say, ‘I’m awfully sorry, you don’t bring any references with you’” (Counterfeit Revival, p. 67).

Make sure what you are believing is congruent with the Word of God.

John John Hardin

peggy Jacobsen on 9 September, 2007 at 2:55 am #

Hi John!
I have not read anything on your site yet, so I don’t know what you stand for. I was only sent your article, it was like waiting for me when I got home from the meeting last night, (9 hours time difference between here and ca) and I reacted. Perhaps I am naive, I take that as a compliment. I am careful and I do confirm with the Bible. In my short life as a Christian I am time and again met by holier than thou people who ruin a lot for Jesus. Either they religionize everything, from dance, laughing etc or they live in an extremely unChristlike life by idolizing materialism, I’ve especially witnessed this in a rich country like Norway. Although while in Ethiopia (2nd poorest country in the world)last year for 5 months, I encountered the same thing. But I want to thank you for your time and warnings. May God truly bless your ministry helping others from being manipulated away from our Creator and Saviour. peggy peggy Jacobsen

John Hardin on 9 September, 2007 at 10:41 pm #

Thank you for the kind words Peggy.
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We will be praying for you. And I trust that you will be able to discern any lies that you might encounter in your Christian walk as you seem to have the right perspective on walking with God.
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Keep your eyes on Christ. John Hardin

Tommy on 13 September, 2007 at 12:41 am #

I agree wtih you that’spiritual dunkenness, laughing, and mimicking barnyard animals’ doesn’t necesarily indicate a relationship with God, but hey whatever it takes to get people to even want a relationship wtih God!
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Hi. I have to say that I am bothered by that comment. In particular, the necessarily. I don’t think that under any circumstances would the Creator want us fumbling around as if we were hammered or howling at the moon.
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To get us to have a relationship with Him is to realize we are sinners and to come and willfuly subject ourselves to His care by acknowledging that we need Jesus Christ and that only by Him can we be redeemed, being obedient by following Him and having a relationship with Him by reading His Word and from our walk with Him… not by acting like a rooster or doing drunken monkey kung fu.
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As far as laughing, that depends. Laughing is good, but there is a time for everything and the nature of our laughter is to be taken into account. If it is silly laughter because we are pretending to take the “holy ghost” from a shot glass, I would seriously have my doubts.
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His word tell us to get them in by any means, the snake and dove method!
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I’m not sure exactly how to respond to that at this moment, but hopefully the verses and chapters will come back to me.
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My prayer is for all churches to unite as one, as God wants us to… and to stop this tit for tat bickering.
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That sounds like ecumenism but almighty Yahweh has called us to be separate. It also sounds like Robert Schuller and Kenneth Copeland talk. Not to mention what Roman Catholicism and the Vatican are trying to accomplish by bringing all “daughter” churches together along with other religions, too.
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I am not concerned with whether or not a church is considered Christian or not. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and if it is not congruent with the Truth, I will not come together with it.
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You seem sincere and I hope that you will pray for discernment to be able to tell what the truth is from the lies – not based on what you feel but based on His word.
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I would like for you to find the article on this site about “speaking in tongues” and check out some of the videos that are linked to in there, either at the end of the article or in one of the comments.
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Thanks. Tommy

Tommy on 13 September, 2007 at 1:27 am #

Okay, I’ve added a new comment to the Speaking in Tongues article with two more videos.
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Also, I happened to find another on the Ecumenical Movement about bringing all churches together. If you are interested, feel free to watch this.
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I like posting to videos that I agree with because the explaining has already been done by someone else and with a video with sound and pictures it is a more interesting experience for most people than reading text.
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“That All May Be One” – The Ecumenical Movement (1h19m)
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8030168056476141572
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“Gathering The Children” – The Ecumenical Movement (1h15m)
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1983170060457244825
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These two videos may be very similar. Different lectures by the same speaker. I’m not sure. They seem to be the same topic but they may have different information and complement each other. Watch both or take your pick. Tommy

Justin B on 24 September, 2007 at 8:54 pm #

Whats wrong with you guys….I was there last week. The presence of God there is amazing. Sorry when the power of God hit us things happen…its not a big deal….its not Satan….its not people faking anything…although its possible that it has happened..WHO CARES!! God does what he wants he doesn’t really care if you don’t like it. Get out of your stupid God box. Ever hear of don’t get drunk on wine but be filled with the Holy spirit….what do you think alcohol is…anything good God has satan has an alternative. Get over yourselves and let God be God! Also no one likes going to church and it be dead and boring and no one lets God move….seriously who likes that? Justin B

Justin B on 24 September, 2007 at 9:01 pm #

Oh ya, the only thing false here is your blog. Church isn’t always about feeling good…sometimes i have no feelings. Hey, what if people do? Why do you care? Why do you think its wrong for God to manifest in people differently? Why why why? You know how many people think its wierd? Thats ok…ITs God…im not decieved, i’ve experienced, you can’t argue that with me. Its good good good life changing. If it was bad i dont think God will still move there and people wouldnt be delivered and set free, healed, saved.
Anyways I hope someday you see God in a new light. Justin B

John Hardin on 2 October, 2007 at 11:32 am #

I have to say tommy, the ‘drunken monkey kung fu’ comment gave me a good laugh John Hardin

peggy Jacobsen on 2 October, 2007 at 3:05 pm #

Hi again, Just thought I’d let you know how the ‘picture’ i got from Curtis is working out.

I want to take you back to that evening of Sept. 8 (my first comment here) Curtis thought I was Norwegian since we were in Norway, right? Anyway he pointed at me and said he got a picture of me on the beach under a palm tree sitting with other people in a circle. He said there was not sunshine but there was light and that there was music, but more like a beat type. This was so totally unreal for me, then he asks if there are palm trees in Norway! No there’s not I reply but I told him I was leaving for California on Tuesday and have been praying for a confirmation that this trip or move was from God and not just me, since my children (grown) live in Norway but I am originally from San Diego.

SOOOOOOOOO flash to my arrival in California 9/11 safely. I meet with one of my prayer partners, the wife of a couple who live nearby and she invites me to a drum cirlce at Moonlight Beach in Encinitas, and yes it is under a palm tree at 6pm, with the sun setting near the end of the hour. Amazing!

The time has been changed to 5pm every Sunday so please come, everyone is invited. I’ve been twice and gooooooooooood things are happening. The Lords presence is powerful and overwhelming. We are led by John and Sandy Clauder, their email is jcdrumcircle@sbcglobal.net

Besides playing drums, tamburines, bells, etc. (provided if you don’t have your own)
we pray for people, fellowship
and eat pizza! (free)
Chill out and get a life with Jesus!

Blessings from Peggy peggy Jacobsen

John Hardin on 8 October, 2007 at 10:45 am #

Justin B., you said…

God does what he wants he doesn’t really care if you don’t like it.

You’re right, God made Nebuchadnezzar act like an ox, and look like a bird (Daniel 4:33).
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But God’s reason for that was to humble Nebuchadnezzar, and bring him to repentance. If you really believe God is causing you to crow like a rooster (or whatever), could you offer some explanation as to why? God doesn’t do things for no reason, and He doesn’t keep us in the dark as to what He is doing.

John John Hardin

Justin B. on 8 October, 2007 at 7:24 pm #

Hey, john what i was meaning was he doesn’t have to run things by us in order for him to do it and yes i was kind of going on a tangent. I will also say i don’t understand why people do certain things. I don’t quack like a duck or what ever other “crazy” things you hear about. I just say its not my problem, at least they are enjoying themselves…Church is suppose to be fun. All i mean is i wouldnt get to harsh on what people do just because you haven’t experienced it. I used to think laughing in the spirit was crazy…Once it happens and you seriously can’t stop you become a believer. Anyways i’d rather come to the father like a child and humble myself than not.

justin Justin B.

John Hardin on 9 October, 2007 at 8:41 pm #

Justin,
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I am not ripping on the people engaging in the barnyard antics… I am warning them that, what they are doing does not equate with Christianity. There are many people out there who are desperate for an experience with God that proves He exists, and the “barnyard phenomenon” gives them what they are looking for…. BUT THAT IS NOT SALVATION.
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It is though, being used as an alternative to salvation and spiritual Christian growth.
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John John Hardin

Justin B. on 9 October, 2007 at 9:04 pm #

John, you said “It is though, being used as an alternative to salvation and spiritual Christian growth”

Um no one there would say it in anyways takes place of salvation. Thats not true at all. Salvation is what we all need. Nothing can take the place of that. YOu can’t deny people get set free and healed through manifestations. When the power of God hits them they usually get saved anyways and if they don’t for some reason its not that they weren’t told the truth about salvation its that they denied God themselves. Justin B.

John Hardin on 9 October, 2007 at 11:57 pm #

Justin,

Um no one there would say it in anyways takes place of salvation. Thats not true at all.

I didn’t say that the preachers at the TACF were preaching that barnyard antics equate salvation. What I said is that they were being used as an alternative to salvation… by those who are seeking God.
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Many unbelievers are seeking God, but they are seeking some sensational experience that will prove that the spiritual realm exists. God just happens to be one aspect of that spiritual realm in the mind of the person who is not saved.
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There are thousands of people who have had some physical experience that they attribute to the spiritual or “supernatural” realm that proves to themselves that they have gained some kind of favor with God.
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The TACF, and their “Toronto Blessing” feeds on this desire that the unsaved have to “connect” with God or the spiritual realm, and effectively allows these people to use these experiences as an alternative to salvation.
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Not only that, but there are saved people who are hungry for a relationship with God, and instead of growing spiritually in Christ, they are misguided through these sensational experiences to believe that they have experienced God… when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.
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John John Hardin

Justin B on 10 October, 2007 at 7:17 am #

John, you are flat out wrong. I don’t know about everywhere else in the world but TACF is all about a relationship with God. The things that happen out there are not a alternative to salvation get that out of your head! Everything that goes on there is about Jesus and your relationship with him. HE is the one doing everything there, the leaders put the self in postition to hear from God and move where he wants and to leave there hands off trying to do it there way. Maybe its not the same for you and that ok, GOD is a big God and works with people differently as we are all different. You are also wrong when you say that those experiences aren’t God. Through those meetings i have been changed for life and its only drawn me in to a deeper relationship with Jesus.
Anyways your whole point that you keep sticking to that its an alternative to salvation is not true at TACF. Get over it, you’re wrong. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you want to sit here on the internet the rest of your life speaking against what God is doing and blowing it out of porportion you go ahead and do that. Justin B

John Hardin on 11 October, 2007 at 5:58 pm #

Justin B.,
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I understand your defensiveness, and the accusatory attitude toward what we are doing here. I might also take offense to someone telling me that what I have believed to be true was wrong, if I were in your position.
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Rather than going into some drawn out argument over whether acting like animals, or acting like your drunk is a manifestation of the Spirit of God. Let me ask you a couple of questions…
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1. What does it mean to be saved?
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2. What does spirituality mean in the context of Christianity?
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If you can’t answer those questions correctly, then you don’t have any business discerning whether episodes of “Animal Planet” should be played out in the Church.
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John John Hardin

Justin B on 11 October, 2007 at 9:57 pm #

Ok…i am going to humor you and answer your questions so you can decide whether i answered correctly or not. Here i go.

1. To be saved means to know Jesus as your personal saviour and believe in your heart that he is the son of God. Its the greatest gift, saved from sin, condemnation.

2. Means i have a personal relationship with the father and talk to be in constant communication with him. Doing what his word says, doing what he says, going where he leads me.

I can’t wait to see if i passed your test!

TACF is also nothing like animal planet, have you even been there recently? I don’t think you even know what goes on there. Last time i was there nothing like that even happend and the time before that it was maybe like one person making some random noise. Once again who cares and who exactly do you think you are to speak out against this? Did God put you in charge of speaking against him? I thought that was satans job.

Well have a good night! Jesus loves you. Justin B

John Hardin on 11 October, 2007 at 11:07 pm #

Justin,
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Thank you for humoring me. But it wasn’t really a test, I was merely trying to understand your defense of the “spiritual” behavior being practiced at TACF.
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1. I am glad you understand salvation. Only you and God know for sure if you are saved. From your explanation of salvation, how would the miraculous signs of spiritual drunkenness and uncontrollable laughter bring someone to the point of accepting Jesus Christ as their savior? The Jews in John chapter 6 asked Jesus for a sign to prove that He was who He said He was, and Jesus refused to give them the physical, miraculous sign they asked for. He even went so far to say that they wouldn’t believe even if He gave them the sign… because they couldn’t accept the fact that salvation was a truly spiritual experience… very different than a physical manifestation of any sort.
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2. Your definition of “spirituality” in the context of Christianity seems to be based on obedience. And while obedience is a necessary attribute of the Christian life I would add that the basis of the “spiritual” Christian life is drawing closer to God, while realizing His holiness and perfection, and thereby continually having our own nothingness revealed to us as it is compared with God’s awesomeness.
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What I am having a hard time understanding (and maybe you could help me with this). How is “holy laughter”, “drunkenness in the spirit”, and acting like animals edifying to anyone spiritually when the basis of spiritual growth is Christ living through us as we grow closer to Him and realizing His greatness?
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If the aim of a Christian should be to be a medium for Christ to live through… did Christ ever act in any of those ways?
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John John Hardin

richard cleaver » Blog Archive » Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship on 22 October, 2007 at 7:03 pm #

John Hardin on 22 October, 2007 at 7:41 pm #

Richard, I came to the blog here while taking a reprieve from being frustrated with some MIDI work I was doing. So, I followed the link to your site where I read that you are a “frustrated audio engineer”. Needless to say I was quite amused by that irony.
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John John Hardin

Nathan Dupley on 26 October, 2007 at 2:23 am #

Dear John, I have gone to TACF since 1992 and I have seen pretty much everything there is to see there. I can’t stress enough that this church is filled with the fruit of the spirit. For someone such as your self who has not experienced the Lord in these charismatic ways; how are you able to understand the relationship with God underling all these manifestations? Everyone worships in different ways whether its’ through music, scholarship, singing, or even the occasional yelling. Who is to say what is acceptable and not in my relationship with God? I really can’t even understand why you would make this blog? Who is to say what is right and what is wrong? Your interpretations of the bible and certain passages you quoted earlier are not my understandings. So who are you to say that TACF is a false movement? This is history repeating itself again and again through out time; arguing over doctrine is so ludicrous. Why can’t Christians accept other Christians? Nobody on earth is able to judge anyone whether its going against the bible or not or even simply another interpretation. There is only one entity that is able to do that and I believe you know its God. I would have sworn there is a whole world waiting to be saved out there before Christians should be segregating each other. Quit this already.

- Nathan Dupley Nathan Dupley

Nathan Dupley on 26 October, 2007 at 3:33 am #

To Richard Clever, that has nothing to do with what TACF stands for. Salvation is not gained through the likes of manifestations, but through Jesus. Manifestations are merly what happens when God is in the house. Its not like these manifestations are something new or made up. These charismatic charachteristics are through out the bible and to see them now is amazing. TACF is not some cultish new wave movement it is just a church that God is truely present.

- Nathan Dupley Nathan Dupley

John Hardin on 26 October, 2007 at 7:50 pm #

Nathan, thank you for you comment…

Dear John, I have gone to TACF since 1992 and I have seen pretty much everything there is to see there. I can’t stress enough that this church is filled with the fruit of the spirit. For someone such as your self who has not experienced the Lord in these charismatic ways; how are you able to understand the relationship with God underling all these manifestations?

What are you referring to when you say “fruit of the Spirit”? It seems that you are talking about the so called “manifestations” when you say “fruit”.
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The Bible is very clear what the fruits of the Spirit are… Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
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These manifestations that you are referring to have nothing to do with the “fruits of the Spirit”. When the Bible talks about “fruit of the Spirit” it means they are attributes of Christ that manifest themselves in someone who is walking with God. If these antics that are practiced at your Church are really “fruits of the Spirit”… think about the implications. It means that barking like a dog, or yelling out uncontrollably are attributes of Jesus Christ. I think that these so called manifestations are rather making a mockery of Christ, and Christianity as a whole.

Everyone worships in different ways whether its’ through music, scholarship, singing, or even the occasional yelling. Who is to say what is acceptable and not in my relationship with God? I really can’t even understand why you would make this blog? Who is to say what is right and what is wrong?

I had a feeling this would eventually come up. You’re idea of truth being subjective is a total fallacy. Truth is NOT subjective. If it were, then God would be subjective because Jesus Christ said “I am the truth” (John 14:6).
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There is one truth, and that truth is God Himself made manifest to us in the person of Jesus Christ. To say that truth is subjective reduces God to a figment of our imagination that can be changed according to our perspective.

Your interpretations of the bible and certain passages you quoted earlier are not my understandings. So who are you to say that TACF is a false movement? This is history repeating itself again and again through out time; arguing over doctrine is so ludicrous. Why can’t Christians accept other Christians? Nobody on earth is able to judge anyone whether its going against the bible or not or even simply another interpretation.

Now you are saying that the Bible cannot be understood. The Bible says… “1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
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A saved person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and it is this Person of God who teaches us all things. If there are disagreements among Christians… it is because one or the other has rejected the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the best way to iron out those disagreements are in debate.

There is only one entity that is able to do that and I believe you know its God. I would have sworn there is a whole world waiting to be saved out there before Christians should be segregating each other. Quit this already.

I agree that there is a whole world of people who need to hear the gospel. But they need to hear the pure truth… not tinged with false teaching like the Toronto “blessing”. Most of the unsaved world looks at the antics that go on at TACF and are turned away from Christ because they can see it’s nothing but spiritually needy people desperate for an interaction with the supernatural.
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If that’s all that lost people needed they could find that in the occult. They need Jesus. And hopefully they will find my article before they are totally discouraged with Christianity and die and go to hell.
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John John Hardin

Malia on 4 November, 2007 at 5:46 pm #

To all,
I have read through all of these blogs and it boggles my mind how “we” in the family og God have to fight with eachother and prove eachother wrong in order to justify our relationships with the Lord. I have personally not been to the church in Toronto but have friends who have. I have heard stories of the things that go like fillings being turned to gold and laughing etc. I have never experienced something as dramatic as that but who are we to question what God does. What about the fire that the 3 men stood in, in the bible, and walked out not even smelling of smoke? What about Jesus bringing forth someone from the dead? I think we all are too judgemental on each other and need to just sit back and relax in our relationships with God and allow him to show the lies and deception of this world. If we truly depend on Him, He will show us.
I am young, only 28, but have been a “chrisitan” all my life. Never have I been so tested as to when my husband died in my arms from a bad medical decision a doctor made. I prayed, begged God to bring him back. But He didn’t and took my love home to heaven. I do not blame God for not perfoming a miricale and brining him back to life, who am I to question what He does. Don’t get me wrong I would give my life to have my husband here for just 5 more minutes but again who am I to question? Since that moment just a little over a year ago I have been through a fire that only God could get me through. My husbands parents decided to lie to the police and I have been investigated 3 times for my husbands “murder.” All 3 times the police have walked away speaking of the humility and truth that I gave. God is performing miracles everyday that we do not see or relaize.
What it all comes down to is that I know my husband is with the Lord and this world we live in is evil. I have been through more then anyone my age should have to go through but I can say that I am here and Lord directs my path. If our relationship with Him is strong He will show us the decievers and liers, He will hold us in truth, He will allow us to make mistakes and love us through it.
What WE need to do is lay off each other and CHILL. I too go to the moonlight beach drum circle and it is a blessing. God works is mysterious ways and who are we, as humans, to question God. If you have doubts of the Toronto Church, go there and find out for yourself before putting others down. It is not hurting anyone and people are walking away feeling blessed not evil so find out forself and stop condeming others for thier relationships with God.
Malia Malia

Bob on 4 November, 2007 at 9:24 pm #

Dear, John you are judgemental. GOOD JOB i’m sure if non christians read this that were looking for an answer to an experiance they had with Jesus they would really be turned on reading all your BS.

Oh look, another whiner that hates when God moves in ways he doesn’t understand or approve of. You better go undermine God and tell the world that hes up to something you don’t like. Bob

John Hardin on 4 November, 2007 at 10:03 pm #

Hi Bob, I opted not to allow your second post since it basically said the same thing and you posted it anonymously. So I included it at the end of your first post.
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If a non-Christian had an experience with Jesus… they probably wouldn’t be a non-Christian would they?
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Any non Christian that has a spiritual experience apart from being born again, didn’t have a spiritual experience with Jesus. They had an experience with the devil (and yes, Satan is still in the business of deceiving people).
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The things going on at the TACF are the same type of experiences that spiritual “thrill seekers” are experiencing in the New Age movement, in Wicca, Satanism, and all sorts of other heathen religions. Satan keeps those lost people in their darkness by giving them little “nuggets” of experience to keep them interested in searching, and he’ll keep tantalizing them and dragging them along as long as he can; hopefully for the rest of their lives.
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The TACF is no different than any of those heathen religions except that they pretend to be a Christian Church. That fact alone makes the TACF much more dangerous than any of the aforementioned religions.
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John John Hardin

Bob on 4 November, 2007 at 10:21 pm #

John Said:
The TACF is no different than any of those heathen religions except that they pretend to be a Christian Church.

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! Pretending to be a christian church? You are one nut job.

The spiritual realm is real, satanic and heavenly. Maybe you are listening to satans little nuggets or helping him spread his nuggets by blasting the holy spirit and what he does.

You are going down a dangerous path my friend Bob

Bob on 4 November, 2007 at 10:25 pm #

John you also said “Any non Christian that has a spiritual experience apart from being born again, didn’t have a spiritual experience with Jesus. They had an experience with the devil (and yes, Satan is still in the business of deceiving people).”

once again you are wrong, non believers have come to my church, been touched by God and became saved, are you saying they had an experiance with satan that was just sooooo good that they wanted to accept Jesus in there life? Bob

John Hardin on 4 November, 2007 at 10:39 pm #

Bob said… “once again you are wrong, non believers have come to my church, been touched by God and became saved, are you saying they had an experiance with satan that was just sooooo good that they wanted to accept Jesus in there life?”

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Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
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As far as I can tell, a person needs to be “drawn” by the Father to be saved… and a person needs to “hear” the gospel to be saved according to the verses I quoted above.
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I have yet to find any reference in the Bible to a person getting saved after experiencing some supernatural esoteric experience. In fact, in John chapter 6 the Jews were asking Jesus for a sign and he said…
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“Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. “
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A person is not going to get saved just because they received a sign at the TACF.
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John John Hardin

Tommy on 4 November, 2007 at 11:07 pm #

Malia said
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I have read through all of these blogs and it boggles my mind how “we” in the family og God have to fight with eachother and prove eachother wrong in order to justify our relationships with the Lord.
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It’s one thing to fight. It’s another to expose the unfruitful works of darkness. Often those who accuse others of fighting are the ones who began the real fight.
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Besides, God’s elect are called to fight the good fight and to judge, and to expose those who teach a false doctrine.
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We are not all the family of God.
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In a poll the majority of Americans claimed to be Christian. That is utterly unbelievable.
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There is only one Truth and it is that one given by God.
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Men like to heed the doctrines of men and call them Godly.
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I have personally not been to the church in Toronto but have friends who have. I have heard stories of the things that go like fillings being turned to gold and laughing etc.
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And how are those things profitable?
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A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after signs.
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I have never experienced something as dramatic as that but who are we to question what God does. What about the fire that the 3 men stood in, in the bible, and walked out not even smelling of smoke?
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You mean Daniel and the others? Daniel was a beloved of God. He prayed three times a day and he was persecuted for RIGHTEOUSNESS’ sake because he wouldn’t bow down and worship another.
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God in his mercy and faithfulness toward his elect
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What about Jesus bringing forth someone from the dead?
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These comparisons you make are like comparing someone who takes from what little they have to feed a brother who is hungry, and giving a chocolate easter bunny.
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I think we all are too judgemental on each other and need to just sit back and relax in our relationships with God and allow him to show the lies and deception of this world. If we truly depend on Him, He will show us.
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He has called his elect to judge and be a light unto the world.
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How do you know John isn’t doing what God called him to do?
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In your accusations of judgmentalism you yourself show hypocrisy in your statements, which are judgmental.
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What WE need to do is lay off each other and CHILL. I too go to the moonlight beach drum circle and it is a blessing. God works is mysterious ways and who are we, as humans, to question God. If you have doubts of the Toronto Church, go there and find out for yourself before putting others down. It is not hurting anyone and people are walking away feeling blessed not evil so find out forself and stop condeming others for thier relationships with God.
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Right, you and anyone want to do whatever it is that you want regardless of what anyone says, but the same courtesy goes to anyone who doesn’t agree with you.
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If you want to prove John wrong, then prove him worng based on scripture and not what YOU think is godly coming from your own heart, the human heart which is deceitful beyond all things.
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Bob said
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Dear, John you are judgemental.
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Seeing that John bases his observations upon and judges according to the Word of God, if I were him I’d take that as a compliment.
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GOOD JOB i’m sure if non christians read this that were looking for an answer to an experiance they had with Jesus they would really be turned on reading all your BS.
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Actually, non Christians can often be more realistic and discerning than so called Christians who are in error or think they are Cjristians but are really totally duped.
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A non Christian person who questions is more likely to find more credibility in what John says than this tooth fillings turning to gold and breakdancing for the Lord garbage.
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It is the ilk that can be found in the charismatic movement and other denominations that make Christians look bad.
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Let a Christian be persecuted and mocked for the Truth, but not for garbage.
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Oh look, another whiner that hates when God moves in ways he doesn’t understand or approve of.
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Oh yea, hot shot?
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And you on the other hand understand the way God moves and do approve of what you deem to call Godly.
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What makes YOU sure?
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Are you listening to your heart or judging against the Word of God?
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You better go undermine God and tell the world that hes up to something you don’t like.
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I’m not a gambling man, but if I were I’d bet that John’s discernment through the Holy Spirit is what compelled him to write his articles in the first place.
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YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! Pretending to be a christian church? You are one nut job.
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Yea, HE is the nut job alright. Sure.
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Tell me why then, sherlock, do you find it hard to believe a church can pretend to be Christian.
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once again you are wrong, non believers have come to my church, been touched by God and became saved, are you saying they had an experiance with satan that was just sooooo good that they wanted to accept Jesus in there life?
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To be saved one must already believe. If they are saved through an experience that satisfies the flesh their “salvation” doesn’t exist.
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You are going down a dangerous path my friend
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I see you going down that road.
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Hopefully God will wake you up and He will if you are elect and if He started a good work in you He will see it through to the end and take you through the process. I don’t know who is saved or not, but He chastises those whom He loves.
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But if not, and from where I see it, YOU are a vessel of wrath where you stand.
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Let him who has ears to hear, hear and eyes to see, see. Tommy

John Hardin on 4 November, 2007 at 11:38 pm #

To be saved one must already believe. If they are saved through an experience that satisfies the flesh their “salvation” doesn’t exist.

I couldn’t have said it better myself Tommy. I think that pretty much sums up the gospel at the TACF.
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John John Hardin

Justin B on 5 November, 2007 at 8:29 am #

I personally like to just see what yo guys can come up with as a response, you are to funny.
I hope your christian walk is fulfilling, i know mine is, i can only hope the same for you. Jesus loves us all the same way. There is one truth and its Jesus. Miracles, signs, and wonders are all over the bible. “Crazy” things as we would see them today but thats because the church walked away from it all when mans hands tried to take over and do it thier way. Raising the dead, healing the sick, casting out demons, this is what we need to be concerned with. I do not believe any experiances are necessary, however i do believe they are nice, peaceful and just fun! Why not? GOd loves to bless his children with gifts. I guess at the end of they day thats what i’m concerned with is helping people. I had a lady healed in walmart that wasen’t saved, she didnt except him that day well that i know of, but she will never forget that! Who knows how it changed her life, maybe she is a christian now because of how God touched her one day! Sometimes i dont think we know how we impact people in our everyday lives. God bless you all! GO get people saved! Justin B

Tommy on 5 November, 2007 at 6:47 pm #

Jesus loves us all the same way.
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God loves His children.
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There is one truth and its Jesus.
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No argument.
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Miracles, signs, and wonders are all over the bible.
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Yea, by far the most were probably curses on those who turned away from their God and went after vain things.
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I believe when Jesus said we would do greater things He didn’t mean more fantastic things, but larger things. If I’m not mistaken, the “greater” is translated from a word that means “larger”. So, it means spreading out all over the world.
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“Crazy” things as we would see them today but thats because the church walked away from it all when mans hands tried to take over and do it thier way.
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These shenanigans IS doing things their way. Are you doing things your way?
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Raising the dead, healing the sick, casting out demons, this is what we need to be concerned with.
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Real concern is to spread the gospel so that those whom God chooses to draw to Him will hear the truth and be convicted.
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What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul?
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I do not believe any experiances are necessary, however i do believe they are nice, peaceful and just fun! Why not?
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Who knows whether it’s from God or the other one.
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Blessed is he who, without seeing, believes.
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GOd loves to bless his children with gifts.
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God blesses those according to His will who follow Him and do according to His will. These are his children. He promised to make Israel fruitful and bless them as long as they didn’t follow the vain customs of the heathens. They did anyway and He brought curses on them.
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We are not all His children. Not all are His because they say that they are.
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I guess at the end of they day thats what i’m concerned with is helping people.
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We are to help brothers and sisters in need.
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And in that day they will say to Him, Lord did we not cast out demons and perform wonderful works in Your name? and He will answers them, Depart from me you workers of iniquity (lawlessness) because I never knew you.
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I had a lady healed in walmart that wasen’t saved, she didnt except him that day well that i know of, but she will never forget that!
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If you say so.
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You say God loves to bless His children, but according to you she was not a child of the Living God.
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Who knows how it changed her life, maybe she is a christian now because of how God touched her one day! Sometimes i dont think we know how we impact people in our everyday lives.
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Sounds a bit like bribery.
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God bless you all! GO get people saved!
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People are not saved by bribery. If a woman marries a man because he is wealthy and can give her many luxuries, she does not love him. Tommy

Justin B on 5 November, 2007 at 7:59 pm #

I didn’t say use bribery to save people AT ALL, I have heard the whole get saved or go to hell message before, and i suppose it is true…but if that is your sole reason for getting saved and you live life like you did before are you really saved? My question is do you think that God does not bless those who have not accepted him as lord and saviour? Like he just turns away and says sorry you haven’t accepted me yet so i can’t help you. If the unsaved can cast out demons using Jesus name, I hope you don’t believe that the unsaved can’t be healed.
Why are you so worried about if its from “the other one” DO you believe satan blesses people? I am trying to understand that. I do realise theres a lot of demonic activity that goes on these days but i’m sorry when things happen in church because the Glory comes down I doubt its satan turning teeth to gold and causeing instantanious healings
When people fall down while getting prayed for do you think its satan? i’m sure you have heard this before but all it is is the wait of the lord, a heavy presence, we have mortal bodies that experiance an immortal God. I honestly don’t care if i fall, stand, feel, don’t feel. ITs not about that and i don’t want you to think that is what i am about…”the feelings”. I do not disagree with you at all about spreading the gossple and having the holy spirit draw and convict people. I just don’t know why you wouldn’t want to experiance as much of God as you can. Hes so big we will never understand Him. I also realise i am never going to win this arguement. What i call God working, you may call satan working. If this is satan doing all these good things and i am still praising God for everytihng he better get a new plan because i love Jesus with all my heart.
I love seeing lives changed, hearts renewed, made whole, seeing marrages restored because of how God impacted there lives. He is such a gracious God, loving, caring, forgiving God. Without him we are all nothing, he’s my hope, my light, my strength. I honestly don’t know how the world survives. People are hurting and always longing for something more and they never find it till they find Jesus, it seriously breaks my heart when people just walk away from the father because it means facing their issues. God still loves them, sometimes i wonder how. I need more of that compasion and patience. Justin B

Tommy on 5 November, 2007 at 9:53 pm #

I didn’t say use bribery to save people AT ALL
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I didn’t say you SAID to use bribery, I said THATS what it SOUNDS and LOOKS LIKE.
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, I have heard the whole get saved or go to hell message before, and i suppose it is true…
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You SUPPOSE that it’s true?
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but if that is your sole reason for getting saved and you live life like you did before are you really saved?
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Did someone say that?
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What are you talking about?
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My question is do you think that God does not bless those who have not accepted him as lord and saviour?
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What I THINK doesn’t matter. What matters is what the Bible says. Not what YOU think is right or what makes YOU feel good.
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Like he just turns away and says sorry you haven’t accepted me yet so i can’t help you. If the unsaved can cast out demons using Jesus name, I hope you don’t believe that the unsaved can’t be healed.
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I repeat “What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul?”
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And, so you agree with “And in that day they will say to Him, Lord did we not cast out demons and perform wonderful works in Your name? and He will answers them, Depart from me you workers of iniquity (lawlessness) because I never knew you.”
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Then you have condemned yourself.
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Why are you so worried about if its from “the other one” DO you believe satan blesses people? I am trying to understand that.
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Then keep trying. It’s not what I call a blessing but what people think is a blessing.
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I do realise theres a lot of demonic activity that goes on these days but i’m sorry when things happen in church because the Glory comes down I doubt its satan turning teeth to gold and causeing instantanious healings
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I’d rather know my God better and have Him help me die to myself and carry my cross every day then have him fill my teeth with gold.
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Give me a break.
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When people fall down while getting prayed for do you think its satan?
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I don’t know. Do they find money on the ground when their faces are flat on it? Or maybe someone else’s gold teeth.
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i’m sure you have heard this before but all it is is the wait of the lord, a heavy presence, we have mortal bodies that experiance an immortal God. I honestly don’t care if i fall, stand, feel, don’t feel. ITs not about that and i don’t want you to think that is what i am about…”the feelings”.
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Yea, that’s what you don’t WANT me to think. Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Lust of the eyes: they get drunk by witnessing wondrous miracles – Lust of the flesh: It makes them feel good – Pride of Life: They think they are wise and have it all together but they are FOOLS!
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Agonize daily!
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I do not disagree with you at all about spreading the gossple and having the holy spirit draw and convict people. I just don’t know why you wouldn’t want to experiance as much of God as you can.
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YOU say that I don’t but I DO. I want the REAL TRUE GOD NOT WHAT THE IDOL THAT MY HEART WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A GOD BECAUSE IT FEELS GOOD!
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Hes so big we will never understand Him.
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If we weren’t meant to understand God or His Word then we are hopeless. But I am starting to believe that the Bible wasn’t meant for everyone to believe or understand.
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I also realise i am never going to win this arguement.
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But you might be back anyway.
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What i call God working, you may call satan working.
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I don’t know if it is God or Satan but I know God says He will bring a great delusion among people.
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If this is satan doing all these good things and i am still praising God for everytihng he better get a new plan because i love Jesus with all my heart.
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Good things. Define good things.
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I love seeing lives changed, hearts renewed, made whole, seeing marrages restored because of how God impacted there lives.
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Yes, that’s great. Appearance of goodness is no proof of God.
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He is such a gracious God, loving, caring, forgiving God. Without him we are all nothing, he’s my hope, my light, my strength.
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Then get a clue and start trying to understand what He says.
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I honestly don’t know how the world survives.
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It won’t.
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People are hurting and always longing for something more and they never find it till they find Jesus, it seriously breaks my heart when people just walk away from the father because it means facing their issues. God still loves them, sometimes i wonder how. I need more of that compasion and patience.
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The good work God has begun He will see through to the end, for His ELECT.
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“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”
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“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish: because they received NOT the love of truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE. That they ALL might be DAMNED who who believed NOT the TRUTH, BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Tommy

Justin B on 5 November, 2007 at 10:13 pm #

I’d rather know my God better and have Him help me die to myself and carry my cross every day then have him fill my teeth with gold

Why can’t there be both? Justin B

Justin B on 5 November, 2007 at 10:22 pm #

If we weren’t meant to understand God or His Word then we are hopeless. But I am starting to believe that the Bible wasn’t meant for everyone to believe or understand

What? the bible wasent meant for everyone, and where do you get off thinking you are the ELECT and can judge who else is the ELECT.

also are you calling me damned?

why dont you quit being so judgemental

Dude i am mennonite….

I don’t have an idol God based on feelings
I repeat quit being so judgemental

Get the plank out of your eye

Your right, we shouldnt give God credit for changing lives

Excuse me, i have a clue of what God says
I repeat quit being so judgemental

are you calling me a fool?

My bad you are the chosen elect.

I am a wrong damned fool. Justin B

Tommy on 5 November, 2007 at 10:45 pm #

I knew you’d be back.
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You don’t think this is too funny now do you.
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“I’d rather know my God better and have Him help me die to myself and carry my cross every day then have him fill my teeth with gold”
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Why can’t there be both?
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Okay. Let your god give you your gold teeth. That’s not my kind of blessing. I don’t know how that’s a blessing but maybe someone can take their mouth full of gold to the jewelers and yank them out and get a bunch of cash for them. Do you want to be a heathen with gold chompers?
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“If we weren’t meant to understand God or His Word then we are hopeless. But I am starting to believe that the Bible wasn’t meant for everyone to believe or understand”
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What? the bible wasent meant for everyone, and where do you get off thinking you are the ELECT and can judge who else is the ELECT.
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I don’t. I just said His elect. I don’t know if you are or not.
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It is apparent to me that the things you say are wrong.
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also are you calling me damned?
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Nope. Not me.
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why dont you quit being so judgemental
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I am saying what God’s Word says. If you feel judged by it then it’s He that judges you.
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Dude i am mennonite….
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Congratulations.
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I don’t have an idol God based on feelings
I repeat quit being so judgemental
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Okay. If you say so.
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Get the plank out of your eye
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Now are you judging me?
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People like to use that as a cop out.
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Your right, we shouldnt give God credit for changing lives
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I didn’t say that. Do you have to make things up in order to argue?
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Excuse me, i have a clue of what God says
I repeat quit being so judgemental
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Wow, that’s the third time you don’t want to be judged. You’re protesting that a lot.
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are you calling me a fool?
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My bad you are the chosen elect.
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I am a wrong damned fool.
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Your words. Not mine.
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If you want to continue I may, but I really have nothing else to say to you. Do what you like. If God convicts you He does. If He doesn’t, then He doesn’t. I’m not trying to change your mind, but say what’s true.
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I guess the mennonite spirit went out the window. Tommy

Malia on 6 November, 2007 at 12:20 am #

I am out. I should have never stumbled upon this website in order to be bashed just as my former in laws, who by the way are in a cult called Jehovahs Witness’s, have done to me. I have dealt with so much more then you, Tommy, have had to deal with. You are right I am no scholar or spiritual leader but what I can say is I have dealt with more reality of this world then most have in thier entire lifetimes. You win, I have no desire to be put down by just another person out to hurt others and how they feel. Enjoy your anger towards others and maybe you should VISIT THE CHURCH before you condemn it. Oh and by the way read your bible and that story of “the men in the fire” and you will see how God’s miracles effect others, specifically non believers of Jesus Christ. Don’t bother to respond because I am no longer allowing your hate to come through my email. Look forward to seeing you on judgement day. Malia

Malia on 6 November, 2007 at 12:44 am #

Oh by the way, why are you trying so hard to convince people that thier faith in Christ is wrong? Are you thier pastor???? Go find a life and maybe let God help you do that. Stop picking apart every sentance someone says as you are starting to really look like Satan’s helper. Why didn’t you pick up the sentance that I said saying that I held my husband when he died? Why didnt you comment on that. Was it b/c you care more about proving me and everyone else wrong then being even a bit compassionate? Thanks for your Christly love towards one of your “sisters.” You really helped my faith today. In fact, I thank God that I have a wonderful relationship with him b/c if I didn’t I would have walked away per your comments of such judgement and hatred towards anything you don’t understand. Again I say, VISIT THE CHURCH before you judge. And before you say I judged the JW religion, I checked that church out. I did an incredible amount of soul searching in my early 20’s. My Mother has her doctorate in biblical studies and reads Hebrew, Greek, and Arabaic and she is the one that went to the church. Read Philippians 2 and 3, everyone, and stop trying to be the Holy Spirit! Your words don’t convince only your love and compassion for others. Again, see you on judgement day when God will tell us what is truth and will stop your needless arguing and hatefulness towards His children. Malia

John Hardin on 6 November, 2007 at 1:36 am #

Malia, I realize you said you wouldn’t be reading the posts here any longer but I hope you see this one.
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I’m not endorsing hatefulness, but I also don’t believe Tommy is being hateful or antagonistic in his debate with Justin. Let me explain….
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When discussing belief systems, or challenging a belief system, the discussion automatically becomes personal because the belief system defines the person who believes it. This is unavoidable.
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But, I don’t believe that we should refrain from challenging Biblically divergent belief systems just because it will be offensive. Would you refrain from sharing the gospel with a Muslim? I hope not. But in doing so you will not only offend him, but you will challenge his belief about his entire ancestry.
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So don’t give up on the conversation just because it gets a little heated.
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As for justifying having a discussion in the first place…. I believe if a belief is true it should be able to stand against the very best argument the opposition can propose. That is the great thing about debate. At the end of the debate, if the proposition still stands it reinforces the truth.
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At this site we challenge False Teachers and False Teaching and invite others to challenge our Biblical position. We do this because we believe that the teachings we are exposing will prove themselves to be unbiblical, illogical, and irrational.
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The Expose doesn’t end with the article, the actual “exposing” of the False Teacher, or the False Teaching actually takes place in these debates.
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Tommy is one of the best Apologists for the Biblical position that I have seen, and it is becoming evident that the position Justin is defending will not stand.
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If you have anything to add to defend the TACF… please do. We are not fighting against you, we are trying to expose the truth. If you believe you are right, then prove that and help us expose the truth.
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John John Hardin

Tommy on 6 November, 2007 at 3:20 am #

I am out. I should have never stumbled upon this website in order to be bashed just as my former in laws, who by the way are in a cult called Jehovahs Witness’s, have done to me. I have dealt with so much more then you, Tommy, have had to deal with.
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You don’t know what I’ve dealt with or haven’t and you know nothing about me. And I have no interest in sharing it with you or getting your sympathy.
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I BASHED you, huh?
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I think the world has gone crazy.
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You win, I have no desire to be put down by just another person out to hurt others and how they feel.
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Yea, Im just out to hurt others. That’s your spin because you don’t like what I say. Just like a child.
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Enjoy your anger towards others and maybe you should VISIT THE CHURCH before you condemn it. Oh and by the way read your bible and that story of “the men in the fire” and you will see how God’s miracles effect others, specifically non believers of Jesus Christ.
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Um yea. The “men in the fire”. I already commented on that. You are talking about the story in the book of Daniel with Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, I suppose.
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You are the one who doesn’t understand, and I already said what it was really about.
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Daniel and the others would not bow down to the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar wanted them to worship and follow a false system made by man.
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Nebuchadnezzar got angry and wanted to punish them for sticking by their God, like John and I are doing here.
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They were persecuted like we are being here! Nebuchadnezzar threw them into the fire with the same venom that you express you would like to see my God throw me in the fire on judgment day, such as was the vibe I got from your little comment about seeing me on judgment day.
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When he threw them into the fire God protected them for their faithfulness.
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They risked their lives so that they could give honor to their own God and not to any other god.
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God was with them in the fire. God also saved Daniel in the lion’s den.
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Nebuchadnezzar changed after this, but this is not exactly what you are twisting it to mean as if it were because of some parlor trick that Nebuchadnezzar changed after that.
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Don’t bother to respond because I am no longer allowing your hate to come through my email. Look forward to seeing you on judgement day.
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I will respond, because even if you don’t read it others will.
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Your comments are filled with hypocrisy and it’s funny how so many people here like to accuse those like me of things that in actual fact they are guilty of.
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I think you feel very strongly by what you believe and that is why you expressed what you did to me, but it is unfounded and untrue, and you are pulling bunnies out of a hat with your claims about me, my intentions, who I am and what I have dealt with or supposedly not dealt, unlike you who claims to have been through more than most people ever will.
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I am not saying and am not in a position to say whether you have suffered a lot or not, but you seem to use it like some crutch. And to say you have been through more than me, or felt more pain than me, and you don’t even know me, or to say more than most and you don’t know most people, sends a shiny and bright red flag about you.
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Oh by the way, why are you trying so hard to convince people that thier faith in Christ is wrong? Are you thier pastor????
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I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. People will either believe or they won’t. I’m just interested in Truth and I am supposed to say it.
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Go find a life and maybe let God help you do that. Stop picking apart every sentance someone says as you are starting to really look like Satan’s helper.
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I’ll do what I am convicted to do.
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Why didn’t you pick up the sentance that I said saying that I held my husband when he died? Why didnt you comment on that. Was it b/c you care more about proving me and everyone else wrong then being even a bit compassionate?
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Because it was moot to what I was saying. Sure, it is tragic what happened to you, but there was no point.
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You don’t want me to act is if I am the Holy Spirit or someone’s pastor, so YOU say, but I am also not your therapist.
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You sound like you’re begging for pity.
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I make comments about the things that happen in these places according to yours and others testimonies and measure it against my Bible.
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You choose to take it personally and then you come back and you start to get personal with me about how I don’t know pain like you do and say I get into NEEDLESS arguing when I do what God has called us all to do and that I am hateful when you don’t even know me from James Bond.
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You filled in those blanks yourself and you are projecting your hate and anger over whatever it is you tweak out over onto me.
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Thanks for your Christly love towards one of your “sisters.” You really helped my faith today. In fact, I thank God that I have a wonderful relationship with him b/c if I didn’t I would have walked away per your comments of such judgement and hatred towards anything you don’t understand.
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You said you were going to walk away and now you say if it weren’t for your relationship with God you would have walked away.
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And then you came back anyway.
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Loving your brother means not sinning against them. Not fuzzy feelings. Affection may be a byproduct of true love but real love is telling someone what they don’t want to hear even when they basically call you Satan’s little helper.
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Again I say, VISIT THE CHURCH before you judge.
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You don’t know me either.
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And from the mouths of some of the people here there is enough for me to believe that it is not a place I want to be a part of and I don’t need to go all the way to Canada to find out, just like someone can tell me what goes on in the crackhouse across town is enough for me to know I don’t want to be there either.
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And before you say I judged the JW religion, I checked that church out.
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I wasn’t going to say that, but now that you mentioned it, you DID judge.
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I did an incredible amount of soul searching in my early 20’s. My Mother has her doctorate in biblical studies and reads Hebrew, Greek, and Arabaic and she is the one that went to the church. Read Philippians 2 and 3, everyone, and stop trying to be the Holy Spirit! Your words don’t convince only your love and compassion for others. Again, see you on judgement day when God will tell us what is truth and will stop your needless arguing and hatefulness towards His children.
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Yea, we will see. I think you need to start finding out what the parts of the Bible you know mean, and also take to heart the parts that you might not care to know.
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With the kind of love and compassion you are asking others to have they’re going to be loved straight to hell.
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I don’t even know how you got all that from what I said to you, but it says more about you than you apparently would care to admit.
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I don’t care to have you get more tweaked and hurt about what I am saying that you don’t like.
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I know what it’s like to feel no one understands you, to feel like you are going to go insane because it seems that the whole world around you is crazy and you feel like you are going out of your mind. But whatever it is that causes you pain you are projecting those objects of pain onto me because I don’t fit with the frame you’ve built for yourself to help you cope.
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I’m a threat to your feel good belief system.
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You have no basis or foundation to lay on me the things that you have said. You don’t know me at all.
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Just like I don’t know anyone here, so I don’t say for sure whether they are saved or not or God is working on them or not, but I comment on what I see because I want to call a spade a spade.
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I have no interest in killing anyone with kindness.
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The Truth hurts.
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When I speak I speak according to what is in front of me.
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You said read Phillippians 2 and 3.
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Phillippians 2:2 says “Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind”
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I can’t be of one accord with what I am convicted of is false and of one mind with it. And I won’t compromise what I believe is true in order to meet you half way.
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Jesus was not of one accord with the Pharisees who considered themselves godly. He was blunt, and He got murdered for it.
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You can believe what you want to. If you really believed what you do and were secure about it, you wouldn’t care what I say.
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Maybe, or maybe not but maybe, it’s a good sign you and the others get upset. It could be a sign that something is starting to happen in you that is going to change you down the road for the better.
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But if you want to sit there and say you will see me on judgment day as if with some arrogance like you will have the pleasure of seeing God throw me in hell or punish me, then indulge yourself and marinate in that and we shall see. May His Will be done.
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If you are that hurt about someone challenging what you believe then you don’t have to subject yourself to it. You are free to not have to listen to what anyone says and shouldn’t have to be.
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I know that I try to never keep company with people who are whacked and make unpleasant feelings rise up in me that reopen old wounds – BUT hopefully I try to think whether or not they don’t know what they are talking about, OR if maybe they are saying the truth but I just don’t like it before I tell them to get out of my face.
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I don’t mind people like you, because as long as it happens while I stick to the Truth I can have faith that I am doing something right.
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I have no interest in getting into these pointless circular arguments that don’t mean anything and go no where because nothing like that is going to change your mind or mine. If you want to argue and think you are right and I am wrong then let’s argue with what the Bible says.
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I think you should reexamine and be honest with yourself and ask yourself whether I bashed you or you bashed me. Better yet, forget me, be honest and and pray to see of God will reveal His truth to you.
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Let God’s Will be done for you. Tommy

Justin B on 6 November, 2007 at 6:05 am #

I am also done, you guys are ignorant, always thinking you are above everyone that comments,oh my position wont hold, we are just hypocrits, we feel guilty, that why we say things. Where do you get all this crap? Every think its because you don’t think about what people say? You just pick it apart and try to say how everything we say is wrong? You aren’t a threat at all to us…maybe you are to the kingdom. We are called to love the unlovable…sorry if you don’t operate in love and compasion.
Have fun noobs. Justin B

Tommy on 6 November, 2007 at 6:29 am #

A lot of the stuff that you say we say, we haven’t. Where do you get your diatribe?
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If you think we don’t understand what you say then say what you mean. Define your terms. Everyone has their own stinking opinion and different definitions for words. I don’t know what you mean when you say things like “love”, but I can get a pretty good idea from the context.
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You are the one that doesn’t understand.
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You can’t argue without putting words in people’s mouths and twisting things to get leverage in order to win.
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Out of desperation you’ll spew any sewage you can to keep your head above water.
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Prove yourself by the Word of God.
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We are called to love the unlovable…
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Yea, you’re the shining example of that I guess. Go love everyone to death then and stick around and love us n00bs.
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You’re ignorant to your own willful stupidity.
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You aren’t a threat at all to us…maybe you are to the kingdom
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I’d love for you to explain what that means. Not to us, but to the kingdom. Maybe that actually means something on the planet Zebulon.
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Have fun noobs
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You come back and let us know if you ever sprout fairy wings now you hear?
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Bye bye man with the golden grill. Tommy

John Hardin on 6 November, 2007 at 10:10 am #

Here is something I would like to know…. Why is it that when someone believes a miracle has occurred, they get all excited?
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I know that sounds like a ridiculous question, but really… why would a believer be astonished by a miracle? As Christians shouldn’t we have a belief in God that surpasses even our belief in what we see every day? If we are REALLY believers, we shouldn’t need astonishing supernatural acts to prove to us that God is present and active in the world.
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I get excited when God works a miracle in the life of someone that I love… not for the sake of the miracle, but that they were blessed and God showed them mercy.
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I’m astonished by the sheer immensity of God’s creation… that’s why I study physics, but I’m not in the least bit astonished by the fact that God can and does work miracles. Why wouldn’t He… He loves His children.
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There are testimonies of miracles every week at our Church… and truthfully, we are not surprised by it. God, by supernatural means heals people in our Church, meets financial needs, and changes lives and hearts… but the difference between our Church and TACF is that if the miracles stoppped, our whole belief system wouldn’t fall apart.
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I mentioned that many people at our Church experience miracles…. well, there are many others who don’t. There are many people who don’t get the financial blessings, and there are many people that die from health problems. But we have NEVER ceased to thank God for His goodness in all of that.
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What would happen at TACF if the “Golden Sword” left? What would happen to the members of TACF if there were never another amalgam filling turned to gold, or no-one ever laughed again, or not one person ever staggered out the door in a drunken stupor?
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I have a feeling that most, if not all of the members there would move on to find another place where they could pacify their need for supernatural experiences. And they could continue to prove to themselves that God exists through these astonishing miracles… because really deep down under all that sensationalism… they really don’t believe in God.
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The dear people at TACF need to wake up. Believing in God is not be convinced of His existence by miracles. Believing in God is trusting Jesus.
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John John Hardin

Cathy Palmer on 19 November, 2007 at 9:19 pm #

Hello John,

I had to write as I was one who swan dived into the Pensacola Brownsville madness in the late 90’s, went to their Bible school and was a missionary with FIRE (a split off) and have since broke all ties with them, repented and am praying for the truth to be revealed, the lies to be exposed, the church to wakeup and souls to be saved in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Keep up the good work, my friend!

Cathy

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Cathy Palmer

John Hardin on 19 November, 2007 at 9:48 pm #

Thank you for the testimony and the encouraging words.
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It’s always good to hear from someone else who sees the deception and desires for Christ’s church to awaken to the truth.
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John John Hardin

Jonny Wilson on 24 November, 2007 at 5:53 am #

Greetings to you all in Jesus’ name.

I see a lot of talk on this blog and a lot of feelings being exposed. I’m going to try to stick to the truth as much as I can so that what I say cannot be disected and corrected. This way, I may guard my heart.

To give some background, I grew up in a brethren church in N.Ireland (a bit like baptist, but the belief is that there is no pastor, the Holy Spirit alone should lead the service). I submitted my life to God, repented and asked for forgiveness for my sin from the Lord when I was 12 years old. [I accepted Jesus as my Saviour].

There have been some things said here that I would like to suggest are worth re-evaluating. Tommy at one point has written ‘real love is telling someone what they don’t want to hear’ – I would suggest that this is not always true.

Also, it has been said ‘The truth hurts’ – in a sense this is true, when convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit revealing the truth, it can be painful for us. However, when we speak to each other we should try to build one another up in the Lord and encourage each other. Tommy, I understand that you wouldn’t want to encourage Malia if you think some of her beliefs are flawed, but you really don’t seem to have shown her much love in your words. I hope you don’t mind me saying this.

I have listened to and thought deeply about what pentecostal churches believe, I have attended charismatic churches, I have read ‘Feast of Fire’ by John Kilpatrick who pastors the Brownsville Church in Pensacola. We must all use the word of God as our plumbline, we must seek the Holy Spirit’s help as we try to think with the mind of Christ [Romans 12] letting God transorm the way we think by the continuous renewing of our minds.

I believe that I have not got everything figured out and I believe The Lord is the only one who knows the whole and complete truth, but I think it is unwise to criticise a church that you have not examined or visited – you are basing your belief of false teaching from what you have heard about it. I really don’t know a lot about TACF, I have read about it here, but I will not make any remarks about it until I know more of the facts about it.

Having read ‘Feast of Fire’ I believe John Kilpatrick to be a man who fears God and from his writings would seem to be very genuine. His experience of what God has done and is doing is very different from my experience, but I would not say that he is wrong.

I encourage you all to love God and love one another. May the words written here be done in love, may lives be built up and faith in God encouraged. I acknowledge that God’s word is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting etc [2 Tim 3:16] but the strength of the relationship will determine the weight of what we can say to each other, it is like a bridge. If the bridge is strong, [like a strong friendship] then heavy loads can travel across [stern rebuking], if there is no strong friendship, heavy words can break that bridge.

I extend love to you all, I don’t mean to offend, if I have I’m sorry. Jonny Wilson

John Hardin on 24 November, 2007 at 10:20 am #

Mr. Wilson, thank you for your comments and I especially thank you for the kind nature of your post.
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I agree with you on much of what you have said concerning speaking the truth in love. The internet is a very impersonal medium and sometimes it becomes easy to make comments without considering they are directed at a real person. This is why I believe it is so easy for people to post here in a derogatory manner, and as a result we feel it is necessary to defend ourselves.
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The ideal situation for a person who was being deceived by false teaching would be for a “good friend” to lovingly tell their friend of their error, and warn them of the danger they are in… but the problem is, not many people are doing that. So, we post articles here that provide a resource of information that attempt to expose the danger of these people and their teachings.
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I seem to be repeating myself again and again as to why we are doing what we are doing here, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of strong arguments to repudiate what I have said concerning the error of the TACF.
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Let’s keep the discussion here on focus. The topic is the TACF, not whether or not you agree with our purpose.
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John John Hardin

Jess. on 9 May, 2012 at 8:39 am #

John,

Thank you for this article.

I used to believe this whole revival was real but God has been taking me on a discernment lesson with churches all through the ending of last year and the beginning of this year. I visited a few churches last year trying to find one after finishing high school, I want to really know God but i also wanted to find that community. I always had to nagging inside of me to read the bible but stubbornly I didn’t. That didn’t help when the false prophets/ teachers came and I fell big time. Now I have to suffer the consequences of my actions.

“First of all, Romans 12:12 states that we are to be “renewed” in our mind, and this comes by a transformation by the Holy Spirit. This is not a some dramatic sign of the Holy Spirit’s presence, but rather an inward working process that comes about by prayer, reading the Word of God, and by the preaching of the Word… and is a work that is done in our mind by the Holy Spirit.

I completely agree with you ^^. Spending time alone with Jesus, reading the word in context (I try to read whole books at a time to get the FULL context of what the writer is saying and writing it down) and praying to God what would please Him for me to pray to Him cause most times i have no idea what to pray. sometimes He gives me verses and I pray them. His word is convicting as a knife and most times i don’t want to read the next sentence but I love His truth. I just love it.

All denominations really confuse me and it doesn’t help when people have clashing views and tell me their opinion, cause it makes me more confused but I honestly believe this thing of sitting down and praying by ones self and reading the word is basically the best thing. Also finding reliable honest counsel is good too.

The whole renewel of heart and mind comes from the WORD and praying and i can honestly say that is true since I’m going through it right now.

I’ve also been reading through the early church history, the medieval church history and from the middle ages to now history of the church. It’s really informative and good. I recommend all christians know their history cause they need to know WHERE they’ve come from and how they got to be where they are by their history.

Anyway, God bless and take care. Jess.

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